[Interview Begins]

SCHROEDER: If you could please just state your full name and your address. 

GILL: My name is, John Doe. Okay. Madison, Wisconsin. 

SCHROEDER: Good enough. Okay. You were born in 1925? Yes, right in Newport. Could you tell me a little bit about your childhood? 

GILL: I was born in the city of, Dubuque, Iowa. And, my father had a clothing store there, and we lived on a street called Bluff Street, which was. On the shoreline of the Mississippi, but inland of, about two blocks but off. I remember on on the back porch, the bluffs went straight up and there was, a lift that was still in operation that that would take people up to the top of, so still when, when I was about six years old, my father, moved to Madison. He had a clothing store in, Dubuque and one in Madison. And it was, during the depression. And I think that this was better in Madison. So he, closed the one in Dubuque and moved to, Madison. Do you want me to talk about my remembrances of, grade school? 

SCHROEDER: Sure, sure. 

GILL: I can't help you too much on that because I. I can't remember too much. I am a music class. I remember taking the ukulele. That's as far as I got with any musical instrument. I, I like, sports. I went out for football and basketball and, probably played more hockey as a kid. Than than any other activity. We'd go down to, Brittingham Park and known to be and, shovel off the rink. And every afternoon after school in the wintertime, we'd, we'd go and, play hockey. And before the snows, ruin the ice on the lake, we would, skate, both Lake Winona and, Mendota and, I guess, I probably enjoyed that as much as any, any particular sport in particular, an activity that and swimming in the summertime, we would, go swimming in the morning and then afternoon and evening and we'd be so wrinkled from, so much water that we were quite. And at that time there were many, many kids at the, beaches, even the older ones that were 17 or 18 years old and, they couldn't find jobs that during that time it was in the late 30s because there weren't too many jobs. And, and some of the guys were like, professional Olympic, divers they got to use for golf courses for not sure they went after a diving board. I, I just wanted to, if you would want to go to church. 

SCHROEDER: Okay. So you graduated in, Edward High School here in Madison in 1943. 

GILL: Yeah. 

SCHROEDER: And. 

GILL: At that time, people were being drafted within a few months after they turned, 18. And, there was this one friend of mine who signed up for the, Air Force, and they said that they would leave him, graduate from school. But they called him in because evidently there was an urgent need for for people in the Air Force. And he ended up, there was a bombardier and and at the age of 18 and, with the rank of a second lieutenant, which he came home just as an officer. And, it was kind of, unusual. I'm, another friend of mine at that time was there was Fred Dar. He didn't go into, service right away, and he he came from, playing football in high school to, play in, the, University of Wisconsin on numerous team, which was kind of a big step at that time because Fred wasn't all that great a player. Normally you would have got an undertaking right away, except that through one of his many, men around at that particular time and I guess, in our senior year and in high school, everybody knew they were going to go into, some branch of the service, but they they didn't know which one. And, so people just couldn't decide, I guess, like myself, I didn't want to go into the Navy because I didn't think that, like, you know, see all the playing. And so, I was drafted in August and sent to, Camp Ground in Rockford, and, I was assigned to the medics because there were, glasses. And I took my. Basic training at camp Grant, with, which was just 18 miles away from Madison. And my parents were kind of surprised to see me coming back into town that, I would be just 80 miles away for, a few months. And after completing, basic training in, campground, which included, camping out in January in the cold, I remember one time when we, we had sleeping bags and we had heavy jackets on, and that in order to get into the sleeping bag, you had to take off the heavy jacket. Either that or not use a sleeping bag and, to sleep in the jackets. I remember it was very cold. And, someone at that particular time, I was, just 18 and, in pretty good shape because I had out for football and, hiking and the marching and the training didn't bother me, but there were a lot of guys that were in their 30s, and, some of them had been reporters on the Rockford, newspaper. And I remember when we went on any hikes or anything, they were just about exhausted. We'd have to end up helping them carry their packs, and they seemed pretty old to me at that time. No, of course they wouldn't. But, then the, dead. When I finished, basic training, I, I went, overseas almost directly from, campground. I stopped in Pennsylvania to camp for a few weeks and then and, New York and I bought for the, the, Queen Mary there in March of 1944, and there were 18,000 troops, on board the ship. And, I remember mostly being seasick all the way over. And, we went to, the northern route close to Iceland to avoid, submarines. And the Queen Mary never traveled in convoy because it was too fast, a ship compared to the other ones. And, every six minutes, they would change course a little bit because they. So that's how long it took the torpedo to get to the, ship. I remember going to, lunch one time during the trip, and if you went up one deck and then walked the length of another deck and walked the length of that until you got about six decks up. And when I got there, there was all food and stuff that was on the, counter. And, yeah, it was really a mess. And you stood up to you to I when I looked at all that stuff, I just got sicker. And so I just got in a line going back down and, and I remember when I did eat, we bought, sandwiches from the, English sailors, and they made roast beef sandwiches and sold them for, a quarter at the time. But I didn't eat a whole lot. And I was so sick that I didn't care whether we were kricketot or not. I remember even getting over to, England when I turn on the water for the first few days, I would just sort of sway that before. And. 

SCHROEDER: Six days were on the. 

GILL: Yeah, it was maybe it was eight, 6 or 8. Yeah. I can't remember exactly, but it wasn't too long because it was rather faster. 

SCHROEDER: But what about when, when you got drafted, you you knew you were going to get drafted sooner or later? I mean, what were your feelings about that? 

GILL: Well, you kind of expected it to be coming. So I guess I was somewhat excited and, and filled with sort of wonder as to what the area was going to be like. I guess I hadn't really formed any opinions, and I went in pretty much with an open mind to move into that. 

SCHROEDER: What? What were your plans? Initial plans after high school? Or did you knew you knew that you were going to get drafted? 

GILL: Yeah. Yeah, I didn't really make any plans. Like going to school, anything like that. Because everybody was drafted or. Either that or they enlisted. I see. You could enlist in the Navy or the Air Force or, any one of the services. Or you could just wait to be drafted. Well, I guess I, I, I just decided to wait and be gifted, so I never made any other plans. Sure. At that particular time. And everybody wanted to go and service everybody that I had, a friend of mine that, couldn't get in because he had asthma and he worried so much about it. I was also fell out, and I had, a cousin whose jaw, the bite didn't quite come together. And, he was really disappointed that he never got into service because everybody thought it was a periodic thing to to do at that at that time. And, there were very few people who didn't, didn't want to go, and I see. 

SCHROEDER: So how long before you became a replacement medic in the second Infantry? 

GILL: I, when I got to, England in March of 1944, I was sent to a replacement depot in the northern part of England, and I was there for, just a few weeks. And then I was sent to, the second Division, which was in South Wales and had been in Ireland for a year previous, to that. And, I trained with them for several weeks before, the invasion. And I remember we had, we, we crawled under live machine gun fire and we, they had simulated shelling with setting off explosives. And, it was an old division. The second Division had been in Texas since about 1940, and they were pretty well trained compared with me. I just joined them a few weeks before, and I really didn't know too much about it. But, the infantry, because that was the first bunch of infantry that I had had been with them. And I guess the the amazing thing to me was that it, went as well as it did because I didn't really know a whole lot of them. And I guess I depended on other people to tell me or show me know. Sure. Things like, that and after the training in, South Wales, we, we left a kind of, I think it was about the 28th of May, and, we sailed in the Bristol Channel for, a long time and a very, very slow speed. And that was one time I didn't. I never got seasick, but I remember the sea was it was rather calm. And, on the ninth of. The 8th of June, we came to to nature. And in the morning they got us up at 530. And I remember, when I came up on deck that, there was, one of our battleships was fighting sharks, and now I can't remember. I've got it written down somewhere, but I can't remember the exact, shock that it was. But you could. The shells were so big that, they weighed about a ton, I think. And you could see them actually go through the air, and you could see the blast of the, guns to them. And, at about 10:00, we got off the board. I pretty much remember the exact times of getting up to 530 and getting off of the boat at ten, and that was a case of hurry up and to get some fuel early on and keep this down around for a while. But I guess that's the idea was to have everybody ready when we needed them. And we we climbed down a rope ladder into one of these little landing, boats. And then another one of those things, some New Zealand Jews came off when they were coming down and hit me on top of it, and that was going down the ladder. It didn't didn't hurt me, at all. And we were just. In clothing, prepared for, possible gas attack. We were long, winter under row. Her underwear that had, been treated with, gas repellent and, over that we had, ami odors which were wool and over that we had fatigues and we carried a gas mask, and this was in June, so we were just ready for about 40 ball zero weather. But it was in case there was, an invasion. And, I was pretty excited. I, I thought it was really great to be there because, that's the only thing that had been in the papers for the last 2 or 3 months was that the invasion, which was, coming up. And, we got to. Sure. I don't remember that. It was real rough, I guess would have been a lot, rougher on, on D-Day, the the waves and, but we had to, walk in about waist deep water and, there were many, many, storms on the, beach, to just approximate it. Okay. 

SCHROEDER: Okay. If we can go back just for a second. Sure. When, when he left Normandy on, about May 28th of, when he left. Right. Tired today, May 28th, 44. Did you have any idea where you're going? No. 

GILL: No, it was a big secret. Sure. I you recorded? Yeah. Stuff. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, no, he had no idea, and it wasn't. I can't remember when I finally knew where we were going, but I think it was on the 9th of June. And when somebody mentioned that we were landing in Normandy in France, I don't think any of us knew exactly where Normandy was because we weren't, up that much on a geography in Normandy or it just a small part of France. But we did know we were going to take part in the, the invasion somewhere. But because of the length of time two of being on the water, we could have been most anyplace and nine days and and, there was no news and, and, it was a big, well-kept secret. So, so they they never told us, I think that some of the officers probably knew abuse by, by detail, and they knew they were going and, and, but to me, I didn't know. 

SCHROEDER: Do you do you remember when you that when you first heard that, D-Day had happened? 

GILL: Yeah, we heard that, the invasion had started, I think. I can't possibly remember, but, I remember Rome fell on the on the 6th of June, and we heard that. So I think you must have heard that, that the although I'm saying that we must have heard. But come to think of it, I don't remember hearing that the D-Day had occurred. So maybe I didn't hear until the night of June. 

SCHROEDER: Because you would have been. Absolutely. 

GILL: And I, I think that if I would have heard on the 6th of June and we would have talked about where Normandy was, and so we probably would have been able to give a better description of sure of where Normandy was. We were given French francs. I know I like to, to spent and we were given a little, booklet that was in. A few French, phrases to it. And we were given that, that letter from Eisenhower that, you are about to embark on a great, crusade that, that we, wrote. But it was pretty much a mystery as to, as to where we were and where we were going. And there was pretty much of a mystery to me just being right out of high school and being a replacement to, to even know what I was going to do. Right? I had no idea exactly what to, to expect. It was, a completely new experience. 

SCHROEDER: And the second Division was the first reinforcement, to the, first and 29th. 

GILL: Yeah. That that had landed on, D-Day. We were the first, troops to, to land. That's why we had to be, on the ship. And, I remember when we landed, we the first thing we did was take off a lot of this heavy clothing that that I mentioned that we that we were just for, for the gas attack and, we've been dumped our, gas mask. In a pile and there was no fighting on the beach at all. There were engineers that were, blowing up, mines, but it was relatively quiet. The beach wasn't shelled, so there was a lot of activity, around with the song Odetta. Evidently there had been an awful lot of, casualties, on the 6th of June, but I think they did pick those up and got some other great clicks. That latter wouldn't be. 

SCHROEDER: It would have been pretty. 

GILL: Scary to see all the, the, dead people there because I think there were, 3 or 4000 casualties and, more D-Day, if I remember right. And one of the things I remember that we we followed a very narrow path up to the top of, of Omaha Beach. It was kind of a bluff, not, real steep at all, but, rather, gradual. And, the path was marked with white tape to, to stay inside. And, I remember seeing German signs that that were, calling attention to minds that they had put up with no troops over that, and so they wouldn't be, stepping on them. And I remember that we walked inland, on, road and, there were 40, 40 medics that were together, and we were divided into three groups. And, I was with the, 38th Regiment, and the regiment has, through three battalions of a thousand men and, one third of us, which was about, 13 men were assigned to each battalion. And I was assigned to the third Battalion, which meant any time that they would be, attacking, we would be with them to pick up their, the wounded and, yeah, after we were, split up into these groups of 12, we followed the, infantry, and, I didn't, we were still walking inland about 20 miles, and I didn't know it at the time, but their first objective was this little town of Chevy Urk, which is about, 3 or 4 miles inland from the beach. And, I remember quite well on the first day and the, the last day that I was in combat. And I remember coming up Omaha Beach and then, going over a flat stretch of land and then, downward just before we got to traverse those, a little bluff like the one in, at Omaha Beach, but, just the reversal of it and, like the pictures that I showed you. And at the bottom there was a small river. And one of the things that that I still cannot remember on the first day, I remember seeing the shell that was in the ground that hadn't gone off. And, you know, the, the, the bright copper, top to it. And the plant was in the, ground and we came to this, little hills that went down. And at the bottom we could see the river, and at the bottom we came across our first casualty here. And I still remember he was wounded in the. Yeah. It wasn't, didn't seem like a very severe wound. And we we've kind of been he's come up and, there was a road there that led back to, Omaha Beach. And I was back there in 19, 95 with my two sons. And I went over the same path. And I was pretty much as I remember that on, on the, 9th of June, 1944. But. I remember the little river, and I remember the first casualty, and I remember going across the river before as, before I started to said to do it. And he said he got mad because I did. And, we and also there was a tank that team started down to go and a shot at by the Germans, and evidently they saw the river and, and they just backed up and, and didn't make any further effort to go. The fighting was very, very late. It was almost like, a bunch of people going hunting. And there wasn't, it didn't seem to be too much frightening to me because I had at that time I had no way to judge, for sure. But compared to later, you know, it was practically nothing. And, yeah, yeah. The Germans had pretty much pulled back. They had pulled back to Chevy. Yeah. But they weren't even attempting to hold that. It didn't seem. And I went to, we carried some casualties across the river, which wasn't was very small, only about 20ft across. But, the banks were real high, about 6 or 8ft high. I was surprised when I went back in 1985 how steep the banks were. I don't remember them being that steep, back in 44, but they evidently were. But, we carry casualties back to the base of this hill, and they were picked up by a jeep there and then taken back to, Omaha Beach. And I went to, sleep that night. It was wet and it was cool, probably about 60 degrees. And I looked at the, at the sky. And being so close to Omaha Beach, you could see all the tracers that were being fired at, a few German bombers that were bombing the beach. There were too many, but I got 5000 shots in the in the harbor, and all of them shooting their entire captains at the, plane. The sky was, there. Yeah. Two planes. The sky was all lit up real bright. And I was kind of scared. Cold and, tired. It's, very exhausting to carry anybody on a stretcher for for any length of time. Your your arms get real sore and your shoulders real sore, and, so on, and. That finally got dark about 11:00. You know, whatever the norm would be, they were on double daylight saving time like we were in England. So, the blue sky, stayed rather late until almost 11. But at 11:00 the fighting pretty much quit the West. And how do you end the, fighting that night? And I remember being awakened the next day by the sound of our artillery being fired over our heads toward the, Germans. That's one of the things that I remember, and I can't remember everything that happened each day. But I do remember that the first few days we did a lot of walking, and the Germans evidently had pulled back, little by little on the 12th of June. One of the things that stands out in my mind. They said that there might be, a possible, German attack by, tanks, and they said to try and make your foxhole where you want to run over by a tank. And this other fellow and I were digging behind, tree station. I guess we didn't know, too much about forestry and and the are roots that you don't take very deep breath behind the trees. So we only got down about two inches, and then we just kind of cut it to sleep behind the tree. But the the, attack by the German panzers, never materialized. And, but it kind of scared us at the time to, to think that we might be, attacked by tanks and that if Hitler had released his Panzer divisions and and had them sent over, and I think he he could have pushed everybody back into the sea again because, the infantry were there. We didn't have the only thing we had with us as medics were, canisters of, of medical supplies and a stretcher. And, the infantry didn't have a lot of their heavy weapons. They had mortars. But that was one of the things that they complained. A lot of the stuff was still being unloaded and shipping and so on. And, one of the things I found out later that the second division that I was working took over part of the front that where the first Division had landed. In other words, it just to spread the further wider. And we took over a section where they had, landed. Then, I remember the Germans pulled back to, a place that was called hole 192. And I remember on the 16th of, two, who knows what the, third Battalion and that was written up in that, book, too, and they got all the way up to the, top of that by 11 and 12:00 that night. And I don't remember too much about that. But one of the things that that stands in my mind is that the there were a bunch of engineers there from the second Engineer Battalion, and they were being used as infantry because they were running out of infantry. And, they were mad because they didn't want an infantryman. And I heard, some or some bombing to the right of us, which was sent low, but I didn't know. And, some of the infantry guys know what was going on. And they said, well, they're bomb and said, go over there. And I don't remember too much other than those few things that night. But I did remember that they had to pull back off the show because the Germans were too strong. And that was that was about the 16th of June. And that hill didn't fall until the 11th of July with another, attack on it. And, had that. So the, Mr.. According to those books that, on, sitting on was, a very strong position for the Germans. It was held by the third, German Parachute Division and the to show you the strength of it. So 192 fell on the the 11th of July centennial, which was another extremely strong position of the Germans fell and a week later, I mean 18th. And then Patton broke through to the right of Sentinel on the 25th of, July. And, the I read in our division history book that the division, suffered 1600 casualties and that the 2 or 3 days of of but, on the 16th of June, trying to, captured the ghetto. And this friend of mine, his name is, Rick Knutson. His brother was in the second Division, too, and his brother was killed on 192. And, some of the infantrymen that I met at a reunion were telling me that that they weren't able to recover his body for several days. They knew he had been killed, but he was in such a spot that they couldn't, get to him. And the good Germans for for were real tough. And, it seemed like very slow going. We hadn't, gone very far at all. And the length of time that we were there, and if we were going to continue at the rate that we were going, it would seem like the war would never end and that, that nobody would, survive. I guess the, the first person to be killed that I knew his name was, Harris, Sidney Harris. And, he had been with me that night, at the river, and, we we we had one casualty going back to the river that we kept with us during the night because we couldn't, it was too late to get them back. We kept dark and couldn't see, and he asked me to, borrow some socks. I had, some extra socks with him. I know we could put them on. And within about 2 or 3 days, he was killed. He'd have be climbing over a hedgerow. And I guess he was up on that one, the shelf there. And, I didn't see him get yet, but I saw him when they brought him back, and he had a big hole in his back on his face as a way to knock on the brothers drain out of them. And, you know, that he died. That, at that particular time. That was very hard to see in Normandy because of the hedgerows, and it was hard to get our casualties back to the first aid station, because we would leave the aid station and we'd go to where the infantry were fighting, and then we'd pick up a casualty, and then we'd try to find our way back to the aid station, and we had to climb over these hedgerows, which were. Several feet high, usually around six feet high, full of brush and trees. And you couldn't haul shoes. The, the little each field had a little opening to it, but sometimes were mind, and sometimes there was zeroed in by German artillery and and people sometimes avoided them and just went over the, the, tops of the, hedgerows. One of the things that I remember is walking on the second roads, the roads in Normandy were very narrow, and, they had been worn down by centuries of, of use, probably going back to the Romans almost that length that time. And, the hedgerows probably went back to that time to where they started out as storm fences and they just, overdo with stuff. So it made kind of a natural sport for, doing any fighting if you wanted to have a series of several thousand who fought that would describe, Normandy, I guess. And it was awfully hard for the infantry to, fight because you had move from one hedgerow to the next. And it was kind of easy for the Germans to defend because they had all these hard ghost, to go fight behind, and they probably were. We're better soldiers than we were because they had more experience and, and, so many of of our guys we didn't know too much about, fighting. I don't think I, I know I didn't know too much about, you know, a medic, but, just the fact that I was just 18 and in pretty good shape is, this physically fit, sure to, carry the, casualties. But getting back to the sunken road, I remember one time we were walking, in this road and there were some, infantry that were up ahead maybe a hundred yards or so, and we heard an explosion and and we got up two and and 3 or 4 of you that had been wounded by this, mine, which was called a box in bury, would go up in the air and then explode about six feet in the air and send a lot of shrapnel up. And, I remember another time being in the sunken road during the shelling, and I heard a shell come right in, almost on top of me, and it just made a thud, and it sounded like it went into the side of the bank, were turned around and look to see if it actually had, but I it sounded like it really came close. I guess one of the. One of the hardest things for us to. Oh, carry these casualties. They got to be so heavy you'd pick up a guy that weighed 200 pounds. And by the time we get back to the aid station, really, exhausted with them and some of the, casualties that we would pick up would die by the time we get back to the aid station. And we would just, roll them off from the ground, and you'd go back and pick up somebody else who was wounded because you wouldn't want to bother with the dead when those people that were, still alive and. I want. See? I remember one time we went back to an aid station with no casualties, and it wasn't our own aid station. We had somehow got lost and we found another one. And the doctor wasn't one to take in to take our casualty because he. See, when you take over the United States associated with him. And he did, we did take him. I remember during the in some of the battles, we picked up two German soldiers. It would be the only time you picked up any German wounded, because normally the Germans would take back their, wounded as they retreated. They never retreated very fast. And they were pretty careful about about taking both. Well, not all is are dead. Dead and all stupid dead. But they did take their, casualties, and I don't remember ever hardly seen any Germans at all, simply because of the, outgrowth of all the foliage and all the trees and because of the, hedgerows. And I don't think that, the infantry did either. I remember one time seeing the infantry. They they had their guns propped up on the hedgerows. They were just reaching out like this and even looking where we were, firing the guns. Sometimes, we would get we would go back with the casualties to the aid station and then start back out again to, to where the fighting was. And then we'd run into a German sniper and they sometimes would, have them in the trees or some particular place, and we would usually find a few infantry that we'd stop to, and we will be there with some waiting. And until they finally got rid of that sniper, and now we could get back up to the front. And then it was hard to. And normally it was always hard to tell exactly where the, the front was. You sometimes you would, you would keep on going and you'd ask, you're looking for American infantry, but, you wouldn't find them, and and they would find you knew you'd find them in Syria at the front and superior if you're here now. But I remember one time we were out and, we were walking ahead, and this one fellow was there was, Collins. And he was a little bit in front of us, and we were told to pull back, and he would so hollered to him to pull back. But, you never did that. He just kept on going, and you never saw him again. I don't know if he got killed or was taken prisoner or what, but, he was. He was. Among the missing. I guess maybe somebody else knew what happened to him there. But I remember that, that we did the. I guess the fighting became more intense as we as we got past, go 192 and, when we got into near a place called, Saint-Jean, which was not too far away from going to and getting toward the end of July, but the 25th and 26, 27, I think the, the, the regiment lost four men during those three days. And then the other, fighting that, occurred during the war, of the the 40 medics that I landed with, five were killed, and there were. A lot them that that left from combat exhaustion. There were two guys that one had on the premises and one was going blind, and, the rest were, were wounded. So, I don't know, when I left, it was just eight who hadn't, but when I got one deserved, it but we're left. I, I wrote everybody's name down, and I still have that little notebook and and, it's kind of interesting to see what happened to the everybody. I can't exactly place their names, but, I, I did meet up with this one fellow whose name was. But until I had been working 50 years after the war, I finally found out that he lived in Victoria, Texas. And I went down to see him. And I knew him probably better than anybody, because he was in my letter squad and we were together for, for, two months. He was a Mexican American and. Yeah. After I got, who in the town of beer? He, was, changed from a leather bear to a couple laid back. And, I guess I'm getting a little bit. I had, his my story got me stopped for a minute. No. 

SCHROEDER: Yeah, I was the. You know, I think. 

GILL: I think we should. I want to, maybe talk a little bit about the, steps in in evacuating, casualty after, we operated from the, battalion aid station to, where the infantry were fighting. And then after we got them to the battalion aid station, they were taken, usually, taken by jeep or by ambulance to what was called a, collecting, station and then from there to a certain station and then finally back to the station hospital, which was about 10 or 12 miles back, like in the Mash, movies. But the H the battalion aid station was as close to the fighting as you could. And yes, without, endangering the lives of the people that you're picking up. And the collecting station was maybe 2 or 3 miles back, and the train station was maybe two miles back after that, and finally got back to the hospital. And at each one of these, areas of the casualty were supposed to be get more treatment. When we picked them up, we really didn't hardly, do anything except try and stop the bleeding if we could, and put a bandage on, it and morphine or Pumicestone. But our biggest job was to get them back to the aid station, and, at the aid station, they would, try. There should be, only one doctor there. And sometimes you grab from the fire return, if you could imagine. And. Yeah. And, Tom, you had 25 automobile accidents and one doctor because, how little the doctor could, could do it. He couldn't, really, get a full left. But back at the collecting station, they could get more attention. And then finally at the train station, that was where he at the station hospital. That was where they did the surgery. And, died. Eight people were. I guess I was there for 3 or 4 years or five years before I was evacuated to, England by, by plane. And, you know, these little C-47. I remember. I don't remember a lot of the casualties. I remember one officer that we picked up. He was the only one. I think that you really complained. I mean, really heavy. Yeah. We had to, set them down. Is that why you're need. And I'll set them down to jump. And we'd be yelling at us and talking about this thing and everything. But I don't even remember what was the matter with it. But the biggest majority of, the casualties we picked up never complained about their injuries. I think maybe because you were in shock. A lot of em. They never did, a whole lot of, complaining. You remember on the 11th of, June, the third Battalion didn't take part in that second battle for the whole one, maybe two. But in the afternoon, we as medics, we called in to help with the wounded, with with some of the other, Italians. And, the fighting was pretty much over at the time, but, I remember that we picked up, our casualty, who had a rather severe neck wound. And, you were still alive when we picked him up. But when we got him on the letter, he started bleeding more. And within a short time, he died. I don't know if anybody could have, anything for him. During the, the shelling in, there. You remember riding back to the aid station? Where we picked up shells of the. This was on a road, and I rode back about a half mile on this road, which went downhill and up people and, up the upper part of that hole was this was our aid station. And we just load up the Jeep and, take that. I rode back twice, to hole guys on. And I remember a couple of guys among the heavies going off, and one had another big, wound. But I guess the worst, casualty number was in the town of deer during that, that same shelling, then, an infantryman. Yeah. And up to a sudden, this whole jaw had been, blown off. And you could just see that the tattered pieces of his cheek and, he was bleeding, and he must have just gotten killed within a matter of seconds. And we put a bandage on him, and I don't know what ever happened to him. I can't remember other than seeing and what we did. Have you gone on to another place? You see, so many shells are falling at that time. Like, he was looking around around too much. 

SCHROEDER: Do you get used to seeing things like that? 

GILL: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't bother you after a while, but but this one particular guy with, if you see much of his face gone was, he's one of the worst ones that we did see and still, still run around like that. And I don't know how, you know, looking to see what happened to it. In the town of Viera on the 4th of August. I get I'm getting a little ahead of my story, but there must have been 50 or 75, casualties laying around here. Station. Even some German prisoners, medics that were helping with video of the wounded. Do you want? Join us. Stop for a minute and see where I'm going. Sure. 

SCHROEDER: Okay. Could you tell me a little bit about, the days when there wasn't a lot of fighting and, what, kind of went on? 

GILL: Yeah. One. Yeah. After the 16th of June, when we went back, had to withdraw from the top of, no. 192, we. Were kind of at the base of the hill, but but maybe half a mile back from the top of the the Germans could still see a few around. And, I remember we came back from the battalion aid station and we were back of the, collecting station, and we just sort of, sat around. It was Danny fighting to speak of, and what had happened, on the 19th of June was a totally, you know, a bad storm that occurred in the, channel. And then many of the Mulberry, harbors had been wrecked, and a lot of the supplies had been a lot of the ships had been wrecked and supplies, lost. So it kind of held up the, fighting. We didn't know that at the time. We didn't know about the storm. But I remember reading about it. And during these lulls, we we we still stopped in foxholes and we dug foxholes. And I remember in the evenings we would get a few, shells just before it got dark. And, they weren't very close. Normally they'd go over our heads or we were too afraid of them. And you just had a fuel because the Germans didn't want to give away their current position. So they fired just a few, and then they probably abused the gun, but just a few. And during these times, we had, 1 or 2 air raids by the Germans that directly on top of us, but within the area. And, everybody would shoot there with guns, but with this guy who machine guns or whatever they had, they found out they were doing it. More casualties from that than from the Germans. So, you know, in order that there should be no more firing at, giving things, you know, so there's a lot to I was can tell you about a year or so, but not everybody was ahead of government, so. Sure. And, I remember one night that the Germans or somebody dropped a flare and you could see everything that was on. It was lit up almost like sunlight. It was so bright and you could see, all over. And during this quiet time with, you know, what, we saw light flashing off in the distance. You thought, well, we it suddenly looks a spy or something that would have had you in some kind of, print, world. Okay. So I remember there was, chaplain that was, along with this, and you had a Jeep, and we had a investment in his suitcases in there. So look there by him when they saw all these glass windows all apart, he's going to his father. He, he also, but one of the things he said of those that we could put on some, some guns for him off in the distance and, and, he says, I like to see those, you hear those guns firing, because that means that somebody shooting at, some of our, our soldiers and, all those before, a battle. And so he knew that was going to be a battle, you know, attended church services. When you see there's no if nucleus in foxholes, you're was pretty much the, like these because the infantry were pretty scared of. I remember overhearing one infantryman, saying that he said I everything that I have in my whole world just to be. There were pretty scared the, the infantry, they had, in Normandy, there was, almost a complete turnover every 30 days of the infantry companies and, and, roughly during the Second World War and our First World War divisions were replaced at the front. But in the Second World War, they never replaced a division. They just replaced the men in the division. So that meant that if you were a Medford human, you you stayed there until you you got killed or wounded and you didn't have much of a choice like, General Bradlee's. So he said in his book, he said, for every infantryman there's another kill or some other with a split. Right. Or. And, when you think back, if you look in that division book and you follow from, Dave, went through to the end of the war and, you know something, shooting at your food for, 2 or 300 days like that. Yeah. So you go on the hunt. You didn't ever. Sorry you didn't able to take a shot at. So, you know, you're not gonna survive. And, I guess what the answer to their biggest thought was. Well, what kind of wound am I going to get? And they called $1 million wounds here, which didn't kill you. Right? You two bad, but you you would get out of the other theater, and, I guess after I got wounded, I guess I was really happy that I was wounded because I was leaving my mother still alive. 

SCHROEDER: So let's, you got wounded, less than two months after you, landed on the job. 

GILL: Yeah. 

SCHROEDER: And, you described, that that day is the most memorable day of your life. 

GILL: Yeah. Yeah. All right. I can tell you, a little bit about, that, General Patton. It was the 4th of August, and, the. The American troops on the other side of to the right of signal. And Penn's Third Army had, broken loose and three armored divisions, and they were moving pretty fast. But in our area where we were, the Germans were still fighting off Bihac, and we were only going back a little bit at a time. But they did start to retreat more than they ever had before. And it was the first time that we had any, any movement that night. The Germans would pull back and fight in the daytime and pull back, but had taken, you know, they cut him and he started having after too much too, I know, August 3rd, walking, working with the infantry. And the moon was out. It was a full moon. It was great. And we walked along the roads and on either side of the road, there was a lot of, destruction from, German equipment that had been shot up by the, Air Force during the day or other planes and, and the morning of, August 4th, I remember getting up and I can still see the infantry moving along the hedgerows. I looked up to the right and looked off to the left, and there were no country that was following the hedgerows and there was no fighting. It was very quiet, but, they were trying to to find out where the the Germans were, and they have brought the type of radios and they were communicating with each other, and it was one of the first times that you could really kind of see, a battle, taking place. It seemed to be a little more open where you were. I could actually see the infantry, on either side. And we came to a hedgerow and, we simply stopped there, and we didn't really care too much about it, but I was just tired. Exhausted because we were fighting and having been severe the last several days. And, I remember going to sleep, behind this hedgerow and, but until my squad leader woke me up and said that, there were some wounded over the hedgerow and down at the bottom of this hill. And one of the things I remember at that time was one of the infantrymen was walked along and accidentally fired his gun off the one between the legs. So suddenly I, sitting on the ground and another infantryman came back over the hedgerow that we were about to go over, and there he left his rifle and the one of the officers met him, the unit customer, and said, we go back to the two rifle and some of the other infantrymen behind this hedgerow stuck up to they thought one of their guys was wounded to to start partly down the hill, and they wanted us to, check them. So we climbed over and started down hill. There was no fire, no fighting is very quiet. And we got a Louise home. We came across this guy that he thought was, wounded, but he was dead, and and we came out to. We saw no. No wounds on him at all. And, boy, I don't know what it was, but he knew where he was. We could clearly see that he was dead. Then we went further down the hill. It wasn't real steep. And we came to a little creek and, we saw two, two, infantrymen. One was wounded in me. He was back. He had, kind of shallow wounds it in the crew, Yogi. And, a guy who had, sprained his ankle. It had a strange he had sprained his that he could hardly walk. And we stayed there for a little while, and then we thought, well, we'd go back up the hill. We got partly up the hill and which he started firing, cross over a fence and, we went into a little shed. We just heard all that, all that noise of all our fighting there, all under the pavement of our kitchen. And we just stayed in that shed until, gosh, I can't remember how long it was, but I never heard so much noise in my life. Police has all those guns going off, and, the infantry oriented. You came down the hill and, the hill that you on up the other side pursued through the Germans, and you had a few more wounded, and we pick those up and we took them back to the station, and, it was headed toward that at that time. And, the third Battalion had got to hear the sound of the earth, and evidently the Germans had pulled out of there if they. Because they didn't, you know, put up a fight for it. But, there was, a town somewhat right, said north the road's going, all the way everywhere, and we have railroads going out of it. And it was considered the last big stronghold in, Normandy. And when you got up out of to Revere, you got out of the, the what they called the big cruise ship, because you don't you have, the Georgian government to flatter, more rolling than that. And, and, but the Germans evidently had, decided not to, to fight for the, for the town. And I read later that the, the British, who were just off to, our left were very close to very true. And that goes, some debate, you know, as to whether the Americans were going to be assigned to, capture the town or the British. And I don't know what the circumstances were, but we didn't go to the British, but they gave it to the Americans. And. So, you know, we're going through the town. And it was evening. And, we were going to stay with one of the the infantry companies for the night. We really have to go back to the aid station, but we're really tired, and we're just starting to dig some foxholes to go in every. Usually in the evening, you'd ask to go foxholes so you'd have someplace to hide. And, the Germans started shelling. Good town of here. And there were a troop spraying supplies to the town. There were infantry walking through a clear Signal Corps men and other or a lot of, soldiers in the town of here. Knew there were a lot of casualties. And they called us back in to, take care of those wounded. And that's what I told you about, getting them a Jeep and, and, riding back, with them to the aid station. And. After I got back from one of those trucks, we would we could do some shells coming in pretty close, and, we were lying on the ground, and, that's when I heard this. When the explosion occurred and and knocked me out. And there were 3 or 4 others that were wounded, too, at that particular time that I was with but not know, nobody killed. And, most of the others didn't have real serious, wounds either. At that particular time. It was, and I've got the names of the guys that were real and wounded, this one good friend of mine. But until I guess he got into a culvert or something, and he never got killed by these, shows that were reported, but that, ended my, career. And I guess one of the things that I, that I kind of regretted that I was with a lot of these guys, and I knew them well, and yet, I didn't have their addresses that I didn't know or any of them. Most of you were under 19 years old. You don't think of of this is right now. And so I lost contact with everybody such as fantail, which turned out about 50 years later because it was being turned up. And I had the version history book and he just, finally joined it after 50 years. And, and then I got down to see him, that he was really the only one. And then he, there was a Sergeant Thompson who, had been with us, too, but he had combat exhaustion early in the night and. Fighting and so I didn't get to know him well. Two well, sure, but I could. Okay. 

SCHROEDER: So you were hit in two different places. 

GILL: Yeah, I got this, first one, the cross-country, 50, which I got a long scar that's about six inches long. And it took a long time for it to come together before they could even start, but it really never bothered me. I think this one right leg is a little bit shorter. Got more rough because some of the muscles were cut. And this one and my, that went into my lung never really bothered me too much either. I think I have probably a little shorter. Better than I remember. Yeah, good or bad. But, I guess I consider myself very fortunate that I only survived. Because of the medics. Were almost like the infantry. Did it? Yeah, I was almost the same. Guys, are you able to see here this year? For sure. We didn't. We weren't exposed to as much small arms fire because we could always get behind the hedgerow. And we didn't have to be the look quite. And then it was something going from one hedgerow to the next and being shot at. But we probably got more shellfire that maybe two because we were in the areas where you're good enough supplies and Signal Corps and fires and, and there was a lot of activity. So I think we got more shellfire and there were more people out of ten wounded, I would say to the day we had two from small arms fire and the other aid from shellfire is the. Boo boo boo boo percentage. And then out of five casualties are probably you could estimate about one killed and four wounded was about the know the ratio of the whole thing down right. I was yeah after I got wounded and I was back at the train station. I was there about five years, and I was flown back to a little town called Saint Albans, which was about 15 miles from London. And at that time, the Germans were sending buzz bombs over, over London, which was a little jet propelled bomb that would keep going until it ran out of gas, and then it would, fall down. We heard several of those, that landed probably within a half mile or a couple of miles. And I remember one night being in a, Quonset hut and, you could see the the walls of the, Quonset hut just moving a couple of inches from the concussion of the, of the bomb. But we never thought much of, of the bombs at all because it seemed so tame compared to the fighting. And, normally, I guess it is no comparison to, but, I guess it was very fortunate that, that I survived. Survived at all. 

SCHROEDER: And then you were, medically discharged. 

GILL: Yeah. And, I got, a medical discharge because of the wounds that I had. And, it was about the February of 1944, and, I got out of, service the. 

SCHROEDER: And, when he came back to the States, he came back to Madison. 

GILL: Yeah. 

SCHROEDER: And. You you were discharged in February of, 45. Yeah. And then, you enrolled at the university? 

GILL: That, in the fall of September, I went to school under the, Tiago, and I graduated in 1949. And at that time, you, got one semester credits for being in, service. So I actually had to go about three and a half years, and I think school was a lot easier than under the government is now is probably more like high school compared, to, to what college is right now. The demands are so much more. And the campus was crowded. A lot of the places you couldn't even see down because everybody was getting out of service at once. And with the GI Bill, we were taken advantage of it. But I, I, I like I like the Army and I really enjoyed reading my experiences. I can see that now because it's over. Sure. At the time was, you know, it was really an exciting time of your. Until after I got back. Everything seemed pretty tame and quiet and. And so on. And to this day, I can't get too excited about most things. Sure. Yeah. 

SCHROEDER: Tell me about, what, the doctor found in 1992. 

GILL: In 1992, I had, an angiogram to check for one of my had. The result was, possibly partially blocked. And in the process of running that little wire through the underneath, a little bit of, shrapnel showed up in the muscle of my heart that, that I didn't know was there. It was left over from, a shell fragment that had been burned by my lower lung. And. Help. I don't need. 

SCHROEDER: It. 

GILL: The shock. The fragment came in, at an angle and and worked its way up to, my my heart muscle. The doctor became very excited, and he called to, TV stations and had a quote in the, in the, the TV, channel. And, I ended up on the front page of the paper two days in a row. And I told my wife, I said, if somebody would have told me, I'd be in the paper a few days after in the hospital, I would have said it was the obituary column and, that I had died fully educated. So it was kind of a surprise to the doctor. There was a photographer from the paper, came in and took my picture when I was in the hospital, and on my way out, I said, well, why don't we buy a newspaper instead to put it in probably on the back page or something. It was on the front page for. Use. 

SCHROEDER: Okay. How do you think serving in World War two has made you a better person? Or has it? 

GILL: I think it has made me a better person because it's, it's kind of, of a test, I think of of what you're willing to give up. And, I felt good when I was there. I used to do a lot of praying, and I think that's what got me through. And I used to think that, God would save my life. Third, the last few days, I remember clearly saying, well, God, if you will, if that's okay, because the fighting had become so intense that I really thought I was going to die. And, I guess one of the things that, war brings out in you is that it drives you to the highest point of, which you can, push yourself. And, so, I'm going to keep going, I guess. I never thought of quitting. A lot of the games would play me, combat exhausted and and go to the rear. But I just said the thought never entered my mind. I thought I would just stay there and and, keep on going and as long as I could. And, I guess it that's something that has stuck with me for the last 50 years for, I think that it was probably the the biggest thing that a person would have to endure. And anything else that came along after that. I could look back to what a what it was. And I think it was a very simple thing compared to the war. I guess the war was all sort of a standard that, I could place other things, against. They, they say with the infantry that, they can be complaining and arguing and not getting along. And, you have to they're in combat for the first time or the second time. All that ends, all the little stuff and small stuff and becomes, a very, minor, thing and, things that I see people get upset about or worried about. To me. Not like nothing at all. And I often think this if many people had gone through a war or not. Maybe not as a soldier, but even as a civilian, that. That would be, kind of a, test of their endurance and and, I guess it's this gives you sort of a sense of pride. And there was kind of a sense of pride that the British people had in, surviving the, the bombing and, perhaps the sense of pride that the Germans had to it and surviving the bombing and, and, sense of pride that the German soldiers had even as they retreated. They they didn't have near nearly as many. We leave soldiers to you. Leave them. The ones that were in Normandy, they just stayed there until we do almost all either killed or recaptured. They suffered terrible casualties. Like there's a cemetery that's to the left of, the Germans, the American cemetery, the Omaha Beach. It's, this little town called, Town Bray, and there are 22,000 German soldiers that are buried there. And they never got reinforcements in Normandy. They just they just had to stand and fight and fight and fight and but I, I guess it spoke Douglas Churchill's, bulldog Edna said, the people just build up a certain, certain fighting spirit. But but probably the thing that bothered losing the lot is that, nothing much bothers me. So I don't get too excited over the things that, if those who suffered over here, other people that I know get, get excited about. 

SCHROEDER: For, my generation and, for generations to come who may never fight in a war. Is there anything we should, take out of World War two? We should learn from it. 

GILL: Yeah, I, I guess I was, I was talking to my son, who is. 21 years old. And, he was complaining about the older generation, which is very now collecting a lot of, Social Security, and they get a lot of entitlements, and, probably more than we deserve in the younger generation, I think, is paying an awful lot to support the older generation now. And I agree with them to a large extent. But we're I think we're getting too much in the entitlements. We get more from Social Security than we can. But, it was a funny thing when when he was asking me that question he had on this, story about the. One of these, B-17 bombers that had survived the, the 25 missions and, he had the crew, from 50 years ago. And I had said that to him. I said, look at those guys. Those are the guys that you are complaining about now that are the older generation. But look at what they went through. And he said, perhaps if it would have been food for them, you'd be speaking German now. Or maybe all of Europe would be, under, under the Germans or under under, Hitler. So I think that, that my generation, who grew up partially in the depression and now both kind of brings us up to that. A lot of the guys that might be, really commitment, brother Tom, were from different, camps. And because he he never could find a job. And until he went into the infantry and then he was, was killed, and, so one, maybe two. And so I think we we grew up with a lot of things, the present generation doesn't have now, I don't know that we were any worse because we didn't have television and we didn't have a lot of the things of the people out. I. It's hard for me to speak for the present generation because I guess I don't know them. I'm sure you know quite that well. But I remember what, the Egyptians wrote on the tombs 4000 years ago. They said that, they found some writings, and they say the thickness of the present generation is true. The younger generation is going to the dogs, and that's what. But every, older generation seems to think should because, every older generation. See, this is what I should do it my way. Because I think I know best. 

SCHROEDER: Sure. 

GILL: So I don't like to be to be really critical of, of any, generation is, as far as I close or judgmental, at all, because every, every generation I talk to and they have their own trials and tribulations and, and, words and and so on. And I guess, I'm a firm believer in God, and you can use him as a, as an anchor. You can go through most anything. Okay. 

SCHROEDER: Okay, I'm going to, mention some names and places, and, I'd like you to give me your first impression in a couple of sentences. The first is, the German soldier. 

GILL: All right. I never really felt any hatred for the, German soldier. And, I guess I always admired them because they were such, good, fighters. Perhaps if I had known, about the, the, the camps and the Holocaust and, some of that stuff, I would have changed my mind. But, the Germans that I. That I knew of during the war were always aware of my, you will be told, no hatred. I just felt, that they were in, in in the war. We were in the war, too. And perhaps, we would have. Closer ties and a lot of people who weren't in the war as now they go back to after reunions of like the 50th reunion, a D-Day, and the German soldiers got together with the Americans and they talk about the war. But it's true that people have to fight a war to be sure before they understand each other. 

SCHROEDER: In regard to Franklin Roosevelt. 

GILL: I. I guess when I was younger, growing up, I sort of took him for granted that he was there, and I didn't really pay too much attention during my teenage years to to what was in politics. But, I guess looking back to him, he did a great deal for the country. And, I always respected him. But, yeah, I pretty much admire him. And I happened to see is, where he was buried about two years ago. I hope Parker was out there. And so I'm not really sure about his grave. And the house of the, stated. 

SCHROEDER: Okay. You don't feel it? 

GILL: With Hitler. I remember, in July 20th when he made an attempt on his, life, and I thought, or she, you know, I think that they finally told him the war will be perhaps over or will grow, and sooner than than later. So I was with everybody else hoping that, that he would die in this, bombing. And, to me, it almost seems like he was a crazy. Really wasn't all there because he didn't carefully tell whether it was his own people or he wanted everybody to fight to the death. If he was going down, he wanted everybody to go down with him. He really didn't have any respect, even for his own people. He just thought of himself. So I never thought much of him. 

SCHROEDER: What about Dwight Eisenhower? 

GILL: I guess I also had a lot of admirer admiration for him. To me, he seemed like. A great leader. And he was a popular person who he, spoke. You see these people very well. And I write to my president. When he became president, I never, ever saw any of the officers. The only, general officers that I ever met when I was in service was Bradley. And he talked to us just before the invasion. And I remember one of the things that, he said was, if you're being shot, don't retreat because you certainly run into the shots. And he said, go forward. And he gets a little shot. 

SCHROEDER: What about, Omaha Beach? 

GILL: I. Yes. I was always kind of fascinated by it simply because, we had, landed there. And I, the premise of walking up the path and coming up to these, little stones. And because it is the beginning of the, the Normandy campaign. So I guess because of that, it all starts with the restoration of the. And I still fascinated by those areas over there. And I've been over there about 3 or 4 times. And, I would still like to go again. During the war, everything happened so quickly. And that happens without you having very much knowledge. They say that when we interfere in a battle, but that you are aware of just a tiny little place. But you never see you go, you never get the whole picture. And, after the war, one, you these books on, sitting well in Omaha Beach and different things. You get a better idea of of what you went through. It's like going to something first and then finding out about the. Sure afterwards. 

SCHROEDER: Okay. 

GILL: Then. I guess you mentioned that in one of the books too. They said you wrote the book simply because the soldier at the time didn't really know too much about what was going on, which was really true. You didn't. One of the things that I saw on public broadcasting, you have the Fighter Pilots story, which was written by a fellow who was in the movies and also then a fighter pilot. I mean, one of the interesting things is that he said he was flying the Riviera on August 3rd, the time that I was wounded in on August 4th. And he was this plane was hit and it started on fire. And he came, he took it up trying to put the fire out and he couldn't. And he said, one of the worst things for a fighter pilot is to die of the, fire. And he was going to put it in a steep dive and kill himself. And the one before you would burn to death. And in the process of putting an end to that, they would put the flame out, and he was able to survive for that. I was in there on August 4th. This happened to him on the third. And there's a little bit of a relationship here. Stories like that. It's like, pieces of a puzzle that come together a little bit. 

SCHROEDER: About the, atomic bomb. 

GILL: I guess I was, glad that we did use it simply because, I know my division was getting ready to go to, France, and I thought or two, Japan. And I thought these guys had gone all through the war, through the Romney campaign and then the battle of the bulge and then, fighting in, in Germany and so on. And just to survive on that and then to be asked to to go over to the Pacific Rim and start all over again. But, he said anybody that was in the Army at that time would have been in favor of the atomic bomb. And I do think it saved lives. If we would have had to invade, Japan, so would have been, an awful lot of Americans killed and an awful lot of, Japanese go to. And in their defense, maybe they they could have gone at it a little differently than, dropping it on the cities. Maybe if they would have used it in an area that wasn't, so heavily populated with, I guess a really good one for you of that. Sure. But, but it did end the war. That was one. No one good thing about it. Okay. 

SCHROEDER: And one word. 

GILL: To. 

SCHROEDER: Describe World War two. It's the first word that. 

GILL: That just in one word. 

SCHROEDER: One one. One. One adjective. 

GILL: It was. I guess a great adventure for many people. Excited. It was an exciting time. It wasn't a boring time at all and in people's lives. 

SCHROEDER: Is scary and. 

GILL: Yeah, yeah. 

SCHROEDER: But on the same on the other side, you can say another adventure. 

GILL: Do you think that I was 19 years old and and I had been reading, about the coming invasion, and here I was on, on the night of June, just after, for sure, getting ready to, to land, that, it was kind of, the usual thing to have happen, and everybody would have, come along about a year later if I would have graduated in 44, 30 to 44, I would have missed it, probably. So I I'm actually glad that I did, go through it all. I could see that now that I'm alive, but I think I probably would go. And the other thing is that, you know, I think when you're when you're 18 years old, you look at things differently than you do. As you get older, when you're older, you become more cautious. And they sort that and they use of new, the different, divisions to that. At Omaha Beach, they used the first Division that, that had fought in, in Africa because of the experience. But they didn't use any other combat troops because, troops that have have been in combat tend to be your part either, and don't move because they've been through it. Sure. And, they figured that the new divisions like the 29th or the fourth that had never been in combat, they would be more gung ho to, start with. Which is use a certain amount of logic to that. Sure. 

[Interview Ends]