[Interview Begins]

SPRAGUE: Today is May 3rd, 2024. This is an interview with Leslie Brown, who served in the United States Marine Corps from September 1992 to March 1997. Leslie entered the service as Leslie Sue. Rininger.

BROWN: Rininger.

SPRAGUE: Rininger. Sorry. Ranger. This interview is being conducted by Luke Sprague at the Veterans Home in Moseley, Wisconsin for the Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. No one else is present in the interview room. Okay, Leslie. Oh. Where did you grow up?

BROWN: I grew up in Edgar, Wisconsin.

SPRAGUE: And where is Edgar, Wisconsin.

BROWN: Well, it's off of, highway 29 in central Wisconsin.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And, what did your family do in Edgar?

BROWN: My dad owned the, Edgar Lane's bowling alley. And my mom was a registered nurse and worked at Marshfield, Saint Joseph's Hospital at the time.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And, what schools that you attended, Edgar.

BROWN: I attended the, public school. Which would have been elementary. And then, a little bit of high school.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And tell us a little bit about what happened in high school.

BROWN: And so, I went to my freshman year in Edgar, and then, my parents separated and I moved down to Tampa, Florida, and finished my, the rest of my high school down there and graduated in 1992.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And what made you start thinking about the military?

BROWN: Well, I had been accepted to college. I was accepted to the University of South Florida, and I just started to think that that wasn't really what I wanted to do. And I was going to go maybe into nursing and decided to, see a recruiter and Air Force recruiter, actually, at the time. And, it just so happened that the Air Force recruiter wasn't present that day. And I went in and saw the Marine Corps recruiter, my brother is a marine, and I thought, what the heck, I'll just go ahead and hear what he has to say.

SPRAGUE: And for the historical record, your brother's name.

BROWN: Mark Renninger.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And what made you decide to enlist in the Marine Corps?

BROWN: Well, after listening to the recruiter and the pride I sensed from him and, just knowing a little bit about it from my brother and the uniforms and everything else, I'm like, what the heck, I can do this.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. And, were you 18 at the time or.

BROWN: I was 17 at the time. I enlisted into the delayed entry program. About ten months or so before I deployed.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BROWN: Or enlisted, I should say.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. And, what was what was your family's reaction to that?

BROWN: My mom was a little surprised, and, as well as my dad, he had, recruiter that came up here, out of this area and talked to him because I was, 17 at the time. And, he was pretty proud, actually. And, from what I understand from the recruiters, he did cry a little bit about it so that that meant a lot. My dad was not a real emotional guy on the, outside, he caught those emotional, instances very few and far between. So it was, really interesting to know that he had, that he had done that. It just touched my heart a little bit. And so I even more motivated me to, to go.

SPRAGUE: And you were with the delayed entry program. You were still in high school?

BROWN: Yes, I was, yeah. I was in my senior year, and I believe I the I enlisted or went through the delayed entry program in the fall of my senior year.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And any, where either of your parents had served or grandparents or uncles.

BROWN: I do have an uncle, that was in Vietnam. And he was a Navy corpsman. And, his name is Alan Renninger. My parents, neither of my parents were in the military.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Did his, serving as a corpsman. Did that influence you to join the Marine Corps? Even though they're Navy, but serving with the Marine Corps?

BROWN: Not really, because he was. I didn't really, really know him that well at the time. So, but it was just interesting to know that he had. Been part of that conflict. And, I believe he also. Was awarded the Bronze Star out of that.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And when you enlisted at that point, did the Marine Corps, tell you or did you choose an occupation or was that later?

BROWN: Right through through our Asvab testing. I did qualify in a certain area, which, was maintenance administration, and, that also offered me a bonus to enlist. So I did get some extra money to go into that field.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And. What why why were you choosing a maintenance administration? Tell me a little bit about that.

BROWN: Well, it was working with aircraft, and, so as aircraft maintenance administration, and, I just thought that would be would be fun to do. You know, I didn't know where that was going to take me. Could take me with any different aircraft. So it was kind of just going in. And you're going to learn how to, you know, take care of the, aircraft logbooks and, be part of that maintenance administration department. And that was interesting to me. I, had always, enjoyed business, the administration piece of it, that was what I was going to do was go to college and, you know, get my business administration degree. And, and I thought, well, this was a way to kind of do that, do that in the military.

SPRAGUE: Okay. I have to ask, when you enlisted, were you influenced at all by the Gulf War, which had recently a year or two before wound down?

BROWN: I have to say that I wasn't, you know, I just I really didn't follow it. You know, I didn't. I was young, I was 17, and I was into sports and, you know, didn't didn't really follow what was going on in the world at that time of my life.

SPRAGUE: I understand. Okay. So you enlist. How did you get to boot camp?

BROWN: So I enlisted out of, Tampa, Florida. And, as far as how I got to boot camp, I trained and got through maps and took off that same day. Actually, I went through, several times. I had to go to the maps station because there was a women, quota, female quota for Marines, female Marines at that time, and they could only take so many. And I had gone to the, to maps twice and didn't end up going because they had met their quota before my name came through. And then the third time I was like, well, I'm going to go or I'm not going to go. And, I ended up it was my time to go. So.

SPRAGUE: And, where was this map station at?

BROWN: It was in Tampa. Tampa, Florida.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Tell me about arriving at boot camp.

BROWN: Well, that was you always come in at night and and you'd get off a bus and you sit at. And it will be prior to that, you sit at an airport for a long time waiting to catch your flight in and kind of building up that, you know, that excitement about what it's going to be like. And you're tired and you, you know, roll up and then you step out onto those yellow footprints and, away you go, basically.

SPRAGUE: And you went where for boot.

BROWN: I went to Parris Island, South Carolina. At that time, that was the only place, female Marines could go.

SPRAGUE: And, if you could tell us about the yellow footprints a little.

BROWN: A well, they're just it's, you know, a bunch of yellow footprints out on the blacktop that as soon as you come off that bus, they're they're yelling at you, and you have to run out and get on those footprints, and then they kind of divide you up on where you're going to go and, starts that really starts your process. You are in it as soon as you step off that bus.

SPRAGUE: And what were what were the thoughts going through your head?

BROWN: Yeah. I have to say, I was like, oh, boy, what did I get myself into? What did I just sign up for? But I was actually I was really excited. I knew that that was where I needed to be at the time.

SPRAGUE: Okay. How did that first? Couple weeks ago at boot.

BROWN: It took us a little bit of time. I actually got there, on September 14th of 92. But didn't pick up with my platoon until. The 22nd of September. So basically a lot of, what we like to say is hurry up and wait. And that's what we did all day long, was hurry up and wait. And it took us about a week before we actually picked up and got with our platoon that we were going to be with the rest of the 16 weeks.

SPRAGUE: And what was that like being exposed to people from all over the country?

BROWN: It was actually really neat because coming from a small town in Edgar and then moving to Tampa, Florida, I already kind of had a little bit of culture shock with, a lot of different people and then going into the military just and, and being in that room with a bunch of different people was kind of felt normal for me. And I started to really as soon as, you know, you get there, you start developing, you know, friends and, lifelong friends.

SPRAGUE: Who are some of those friends? If you remember, that's okay.

BROWN: I don't I don't remember right now.

SPRAGUE: No pressure.

BROWN: But, we keep in touch, you know, through Facebook, so.

SPRAGUE: Oh, cool. Okay. And I have to ask so this was 92. Were, were in this case, were there two genders commingled or were they separate or how did they do that.

BROWN: Yeah, we were very much separate. The only time we saw the male Marines was during church.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So not even the same company or same battalion.

BROWN: Just. Nope. Very, very separate. Almost. And I would, you know, when you're at Parris Island, you don't really know what what the landscape looks like, but I would say we were on two totally separate sides. That's the way it felt anyway.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. So, what were some of the challenges that you remember from boot?

BROWN: I think the challenge was being away from home. I there were periods of time where I really missed home and, questioned, did question if I was in the right place. And I think that's where my drill instructors, you know, just did a great job of of making sure our morale stayed high and, teaching us that, you know, esprit de corps, as they'd say. So.

SPRAGUE: And what kind of, contact did they allow you with your families?

BROWN: So mainly it was just, mail writing. We, I want to say we maybe at one call after we were first there and that was it. There was pretty much all through the mail. So we know, you know, that was the time when there was no cell phones and, there was only pay phones. And, we really didn't get to, talk to our families other than through mail, through letters. So that was probably the most exciting part of our day, was when Mail Call came and we were getting, if a letter would come through. So. And my mom was probably the one who wrote me the most.

SPRAGUE: Could you expand at all? That feeling of getting a letter?

BROWN: Yeah. Yeah. It was, you know, they just be calling off your name, and so you're we're all gathered around and waiting and, hoping that our name was going to get called. So the anticipation was coming, and and you knew that maybe if you had sent a letter you were waiting for, a response to come back from the letter you had just sent. So, it was just always that highlight of of ending the night was when mail Call came and when we were doing different, activities and we couldn't have mail call for some reason, it was that build up to that day when we knew we were going to be able to get our mail was just was really exciting.

SPRAGUE: What was food like at boot?

BROWN: I actually enjoyed the food. I didn't think it was bad. But again, you know, we're we're up early. We're, working hard all day. So when you're eating food, you don't really have time to be picky. And I just. And we didn't get to eat and enjoy it. It was kind of like we ate it fast, and then we were out, so. And sometimes you didn't get to finish. So for those fortunately for me, I was a quick eater. But, you know, those who are a little slower, you know, they, maybe suffered a little bit.

SPRAGUE: Were, or your dishes, both male and female.

BROWN: Or all female.

SPRAGUE: Or female? Any particular die sticks out in your head that you may be thought.

BROWN: Of as, our senior drill instructor, Sergeant Capehart. She would have been. Who I really enjoyed, being around and learning from. We, didn't always get to have her, around, and we worked with, some of the other drill instructors. But she was kind of she was always came in as the nice one. And, and you had your other drill instructors where you're heavies, and then she would come in is kind of the mom that everyone was missing and, and and when she had to, she'd come down on us. But, she was the one we could kind of talk to and open up a little bit more.

SPRAGUE: Do you happen to remember how to spell her name by chance?

BROWN: I yeah, it's I can actually get it out of my book.

SPRAGUE: Welcome to the show.

BROWN: Yes, sir. Yeah. So this is.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Show us the cover.

BROWN: And, yeah, we get a, kind of like a yearbook, if you want to call it, of a memory of our time when we were in boot camp. And most of it is, photos of a certain platoon. They may have, taken throughout. And then there's a section that does have specifically our photos of us and, my, our platoons, and our graduations. But her name, I may just skip it right here. Would be, a cap e hrt.

SPRAGUE: HRT or hr e t this.

BROWN: HRT Archer.

SPRAGUE: T, sir. Okay.

BROWN: Like hart to like art.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Got it. Okay.

BROWN: I probably should have had my glasses on, but yes, that's how it's spelled.

SPRAGUE: And, anything else you want to show us from that book or.

BROWN: Well, I think just, these were some of the pages I was talking about, where it was of our platoon and, our graduation ceremony. And I do happen to be in one of those. You can make me out a little bit, but probably hard to tell in this, in this, view, but. Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Which images it, by the way, if you could just point to it in general if you have.

BROWN: Yes, I believe well, like I said, I don't have my glasses on. Let me find it here. I believe it's, this one right here. Okay. I'd be the second one behind the person holding the flag.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BROWN: Thank you. I was the, squad leader for.

SPRAGUE: So tell me about being a squad leader.

BROWN: Actually, I should say are correct that I was a fire team leader. Right. So, well, that was just, you know, I think that they recognized that, I had some natural leadership skills, you know, that's what they're looking for. And, then I was awarded as, the fire team leader. So then I would take my fire team, and we would do certain activities together, or I just be responsible for reporting for our fire team.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And, what was graduation like?

BROWN: Graduation was was really neat because that was the the first time we, get to see our families, so and we kind of get a few hours, and I believe the day before. And then we have our graduation ceremony the next day. And that's, you know, as I said, we didn't have, mobile devices and things like that. We could call our families on and do video chats then. So that would have been the first time we saw them. And for some of us, the first time we were away from our parents that long. So that was it was a great build up. And, and as far as the graduation and, and being able to, say I'm a United States Marine, that was that was the highlight of my life at that time. So. And I'll always cherish that moment.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Any anything else with your family during graduation or.

BROWN: It was it was nice. My, both my mom and my dad were there, so my dad came from Wisconsin, to South Carolina for me to graduate. And my mom came up from Florida. So it was really special to have them both there.

SPRAGUE: Wow. Anything that you would like to share about food that we haven't covered?

BROWN: No, I don't think so. I think it was. It was it was challenging and fun. And I, I really had a good recruiter. Sergeant. Burks. He did a great job. Robert Burks.

SPRAGUE: Er, k her baby boomer.

BROWN: Okay.

SPRAGUE: Got it.

BROWN: And, he did a great job preparing me and and telling me what they were going to do during boot camp, and, you know, to to know that it wasn't personal, that it was to make us, you know, better Marines, better leaders. And, I think that I really owe a lot of my success of boot camp to him.

SPRAGUE: Do you do you think you might have thought of Sergeant Perks also as a possible mentor as an adult?

BROWN: Yes, I would say so, yes. Yeah, yeah. He, because I was in the delayed entry program so long, we had a lot of visits. I'd visit with him every month and know and do things like that, to get prepared for, boot camp. So, yes, definitely a mentor and definitely there to look out for me because my dad was so far away, so.

SPRAGUE: Okay, so did you next go to your advanced training or what happened next?

BROWN: So then, yeah, once I graduated, I had a period of time where I was able to go home until I picked up with my, with my schooling. And that was in Meridian, Mississippi.

SPRAGUE: Nice naval air station.

BROWN: Yes.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And what were your impressions of Mississippi?

BROWN: Mississippi? Well, it was I guess it was a much different than, than Parris Island, in a way, as far as the landscape and the heat and the, then and that but, we were I was on base most of the time, and it was a little bit smaller community out off base. And I spent most of my time on base.

SPRAGUE: What what were what was the discipline like going through the schooling? How is it different from basic.

BROWN: Because now we're Marines and we're not recruits. So, we're, we're actually, treated with more respect even though we're still in school, and learning our trade. But, it was. We could just, you know, was kind of just going to a job at that point and just getting our education, until we were able to pick up with, you know, and get into the fleet. So.

SPRAGUE: And, what was the training like there at Meridian?

BROWN: It was like going to, going back, kind of going back to high school, going back to college. That's really what it was to learn our job. And we, we spent all day and came home and, you know, did, did what you would do if you, if you were a college student or, or a high school student.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Was it slides, PowerPoint? Do you remember?

BROWN: A lot of, it would have been probably slide slides. And then, a lot of, just instruction film.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Did you make any friends that had, what what did they call it? Did they call it advanced or training or what? What does a school, high school. Okay. Gotcha. Any friends from a school or.

BROWN: I met, I had a good friend that once we were done with our schooling, we actually got, stationed out in El Toro together and spent some time together there. And, her last name was Medina.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BROWN: And, so we we chum around together until we kind of got accustomed to our own squadrons and started to make new friendships out there.

SPRAGUE: Do you happen to remember Medina's first name?

BROWN: Not at this moment. Not to put.

SPRAGUE: You on the.

BROWN: Spot. Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Did you get to choose to go to El Toro or.

BROWN: No. No. They. So basically with, maintenance administration, aircraft maintenance administration, we could go and work on any aircraft. So it just, you get chosen based on, you know, if they have, a spot that they need to fill in.

SPRAGUE: Did you have, did you have any downtime at school?

BROWN: In the evenings? Yeah, evenings were our own. So when we got up, we went to our school schooling and then the. But what we did at night was kind of up to us, what we wanted to do if we wanted to go on off base, on base. I did a lot of, working out and stuff like that while I was, on my free time and chumming around with friends, because that's what you got. That's all you have at that point is kind of create your own little family.

SPRAGUE: And. When did you find out you'd be going to El Toro?

BROWN: Just a few days before I graduated.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And what were your thoughts at that point, knowing that you were going to El Toro?

BROWN: Well, it was it was California, so I was really excited about that. I didn't really and had not ever heard of El Toro and what it was. And and actually, I even just KC one 30s, I really didn't know what what those were. I know they were big planes and, but didn't really, you know, it wasn't something that I studied or really had a lot of knowledge of. And I was just open. I was just open to doing whatever at that time. So it was where I went. It didn't really matter.

SPRAGUE: Tell me about, moving to El Toro.

BROWN: So, I went straight from school to El Toro and then checked in there, and, the funny story about that is I met my now husband. That and that very first day that I checked in.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And how did you meet your husband?

BROWN: Well, he was on duty that day, and, I was, upon checking in and going through all the different, offices that I needed to check into. I had a little break time, and he was running the break room at that time and sold me a Coke. That's kind of our story. Wow.

SPRAGUE: And for your record, the. Your husband's name is Justin Brown. Okay. And did you know when you saw. You saw him? You were. I have to ask. Yeah.

BROWN: I mean, it's kind of. It is kind of a cheesy thing, but. Yeah, I mean, he he was attractive and, and he was friendly and flirty, like, you know, most young men are at that age.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And, I have to ask, you were what was your unit at El Toro?

BROWN: BMG. 352.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And that stands for. I do not want to go there.

BROWN: Yeah, let's not go there because. But it's, you know, it's an aircraft or squadron.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Yep. I'm. Here's what I have. And I could be wrong. And you can correct me on this marine marine aerial refueling transport squad.

BROWN: Yes, yes.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And then you had mentioned on your interview request form that was part of the third Mar.

BROWN: Yes.

SPRAGUE: Third Marine Aircraft Wing. Do you happen to know if it was what group it was part of, or does that not come into the lexicon?

BROWN: I really didn't talk further than that. But I want to say it would be. That I'd have to look that one up.

SPRAGUE: I have, and that could be wrong. And that's why we're sitting here. The Marine Aircraft Group 11 mag 11.

BROWN: Yes. Yes, that is correct. Mag 11. Yes.

SPRAGUE: And I totally understand. As a marine, you may not. So when you were thinking about what do you think about your unit, you would have thought of yourself in the squadron and the wing and.

BROWN: Yes, and primarily the squadron, I think. I think that's where the the loyalty is. You know, we were the 352 Raiders and that is that was who I was. That was my family. And, you know, we kind of I didn't think I went further than that.

SPRAGUE: Within the squadron. Dumb army question. Was there a particular company within the squadron or how does that go together. I you know, is there or is it all just one unit at the squadron level.

BROWN: So there's all kinds of different, aircraft divisions underneath. The third Ma, the third Marine Aircraft Wing. Okay. So that report and its, kind of like its own, I would say unit. It's okay. That's its unit, you know. Okay. And then reports up higher to a more larger unit with other scoring aircraft wings.

SPRAGUE: Got it. Okay. Understood. So you arrived at El Toro. When do you think.

BROWN: It would have been? March of 93.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Okay. And when you got there, what was your first impressions of El Toro?

BROWN: Well, it was like, again, it was California, so I was pretty excited about that. And I, was a big base, where our barracks were from, where we had to, get to the aircraft wing was a little distance to travel, so you needed to have some transportation, whether it was a bike or a car. So you make friends pretty quickly so you can get to and from where you need to go because it was pretty, you know, pretty spanned out, depending on where, where, if you lived on base or off base because there was off base housing and on base housing as well.

SPRAGUE: So, and when you first arrived, were you on base or off base?

BROWN: I was on base.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Okay.

BROWN: So I lived in the barracks.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And tell me a little bit about going to work the first day for lack of a better term at the unit.

BROWN: Yeah. So you just, I just get up and go to my job, just like everything else. The aircraft wing is a little different than, you know, being in the grounds. So, it's a little, little more like going to your job. And there's certain things we do have to do. Monthly. Weekly. As far as, you know, our individual shops that we might be in or, as a group, as an entire, you know, squadron. As far as petty and different things like that. But, generally, you know, you go to work and you do your job and sometimes you may be working the day shift or the night shift. As they had both. And, and then you would have your monthly duty.

SPRAGUE: Tell me about aircraft accounting and what it is.

BROWN: So we maintained all of the logbooks on the aircraft. So all of the, required maintenance that needed to be done, inspections and everything that, were done. And even if there was, something that needed to be fixed that required a logbook entry, we would keep that on all of the props and all of the engines on the airplane. And, that would be that's basically it's historical data. So we used to have these big books. I'm not sure if they're probably electronic now, I don't know. But, we, we take the pages out and we'd have to type onto the paper of what, came in on the slip that, that the, the green sheet that, you know, roll it up whether it was an inspection or, you know, maintenance.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BROWN: And then we also did other administrative duties for the entire maintenance department. Aircraft maintenance department.

SPRAGUE: So how does that work? When you're looking at the log, do you look at the log? And. I don't know, you say, well, you're missing a widget or something. I don't know, you tell me what?

BROWN: Yeah. So there are certain things. Like I said, it was primarily required, inspections and if. There were certain, obviously, if you were changed a prop or something like that that needed to be logged. And it just went in chronological order and, we just we make certain entries. So there were certain things that didn't have to be logged and certain things that did, and we'd get these green sheets and we'd have to go through them and decide, with our training, what was required to be logged and what wasn't.

SPRAGUE: Wow. And this. And you are updating it, if I understand you correctly, with a typewriter. Yes, that somehow has to get the green sheet in it and then you have to roll. Take the.

BROWN: So the, the maintenance department would give us the green sheet, and then we would review those and then whatever required the logbook entry, it was these big brown books that opened. And, we would take out the sheet that was in that and then put it through. So then if you needed more sheets, you'd add to it. And, that's kind of, yeah, really old school. It doesn't seem like it's that long ago. But when when I sit here and talk about it, I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't even know. Do they use typewriters anymore?

SPRAGUE: Wow. So there was no automated way to find out if something was.

BROWN: Wrong or no. You had to find the book and and that book went every went. So while the aircraft was, with the squadron, the logbook stayed. And then if there was a deployment that, one like I went on, then you would, the logbooks would go with you and you would do that. You do your job there at, where you were stationed at that time and deployed to and just do the entries there. So these books kind of go with the plane wherever they go. So if they go in for like a whole overhaul, those logbooks go with it. Wow.

SPRAGUE: And I've got to ask, I think it's a rhetorical question though. Were there was there a computer anywhere in that picture? Like.

BROWN: I'm trying to think if we just started to kind of, incorporate computers. It's Marine Corps, remember? So we're always a little further behind too. So, at the time, anyway, last to get everything. So, we were just. And it would have been dos we would have been working in dos.

SPRAGUE: What, what was a typical day like?

BROWN: We'd come in, we'd have to do a fart walk, so we'd be checking for foreign objects, on the flight line. So we do, a walk across our where our airplanes would come in to our squadron or into our Bay area, and, they would we'd get in a line and we'd just walk across and look at the ground and make sure there wasn't any bolts or anything like that.

SPRAGUE: Ford acronym how to f a.

BROWN: It's, foreign objects and debris.

SPRAGUE: Foreign objects and debris. Okay. Ephod. Okay. I have to ask that because the transcribers will ask. Yeah. What did she just say.

BROWN: Yes.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Okay. You finished your Ford Walk cipher.

BROWN: Yeah. So we finished our Ford walk. And then if there was any information that needed to be passed down from, our lieutenant colonel, then we would have that or our sergeant major, we'd have a little, gathering, information with that and cover those things, and then we'd be dismissed to go to our jobs and start working. So. And then, like I said, we every day, every day was the same thing, pretty much.

SPRAGUE: What were your initial impressions of working on the C-130?

BROWN: I thought they were pretty cool because they're both, ours were both a refuel there and a cargo plane. So we had a lot of different types of missions, than than just, you know, let's say, you know, the Jets, you know, where they go out and fly a mission and they come back where, you know, we could be loading up. Not me personally, but, you know, our, could be loading up different cargo. We could be transporting other Marines. And, and, and then we could be refueling all types of different planes, you know, in the, in the air. So it was pretty interesting.

SPRAGUE: It sounds like a pretty dynamic differed. Mission profile.

BROWN: Yes, yes. And, you know, being with those types of aircraft and being in the aircraft wing in general, you know, we were always we're always in the back, of where any conflict might be happening because we're always there in support of those things. So I felt I felt safe and secure while I was there as well. Being attached.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Were you on base or off base later, or. How did that the whole time? I know she said early on, you're on base.

BROWN: Right. So I was on base until. My husband and I got married. Okay. And, we eloped to Las Vegas. Okay.

SPRAGUE: When was that?

BROWN: That was September 17th of 1993. Okay. And then, then we, got married back here in Wisconsin on our one year anniversary, so September 17th, 1994, and had a traditional wedding here in Germany.

SPRAGUE: But initially you got married in Las Vegas.

BROWN: Las Vegas.

SPRAGUE: Clark County, Nevada.

BROWN: Yes. Yep. The hitching post, which is no longer there. It's a bank now, but it was one of the longest and oldest, chapels. And Elvis Presley, you know, got married there and Viva Las Vegas and the movie Viva Las Vegas. So it had some significance.

SPRAGUE: Wow. So, what was that like, going to off base housing versus.

BROWN: So my husband and I, ended up living out in town in an apartment, so we didn't, live in base housing. So we got to I think we got to see more of, you know, Lake Forest, which is the community that was outside of El Toro and Irvine and that area of California, and and had a little bit more, maybe connection to civilians than, people who were stationed on base or an on base housing.

SPRAGUE: What did you do in your downtime when you weren't working?

BROWN: When I wasn't working, we were going to the beach. Going to the beach. We went skiing a few times up to Big Bear, and, just spent a lot of time with friends and and and and armor and Marine Corps friends. We we probably got together, you know, every weekend for sure. And then it maybe a friend was coming over or doing something throughout the week. So we always, stayed pretty close. We were tight knit group.

SPRAGUE: Any identity with that group? Any one name or particular?

BROWN: Well, my best friend to this day, she was married to a marine that was in, our squadron Mark photo, and her name is Kim Bro. So she. And she wouldn't mind me saying her name. And we've been able to maintain our friendship and my friendship with our friendship with Mark as well.

SPRAGUE: Kim. And how do you spell.

BROWN: R g, bro? GE, bro.

SPRAGUE: Okay, cool. Okay. What? Was your husband in the same unit or a different unit?

BROWN: He was in the same squadron, and he was an, avionics technician.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So, like a different section or different section?

BROWN: Yep. Yeah. Okay.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Tell me about. So at this point, you're you've been in a year or two years at least.

BROWN: That's about the time we married. Yeah. I would have been in a year. Okay.

SPRAGUE: And at that point, your, lance.

BROWN: Corporal was lance corporal.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And you're growing in responsibilities. Yes. Okay. What was that like?

BROWN: I think it just put me. In a better position for where I am now. And and as far as responsibilities, you kind of just take on a little bit more, there's more expectations of you and your performance.

SPRAGUE: Did, you by chance. And I've got to ask this question. There was a stand down with aircraft in 94, in September of 94 across the corps. Do you remember that at all, by chance or.

BROWN: I don't have no problem.

SPRAGUE: I've got to ask that question. Okay. Yeah. It's there. Okay. So let's we're moving up on 95. Let's talk about, your deployment and how that came about.

BROWN: Yes. So our squadron, got deployed, as part of, Operation United Shield, and that was, in support of the final removal, of U.N. troops out of, U.N. forces, excuse me, out of Somalia. And we were stationed, at that point, we were, based out of, Mombasa, Kenya and their and their airport.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And about when was that?

BROWN: Do you remember that we would have left in January of 1995, and I spent about a month over there.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And, if you can tell me what, tell me a little bit about your mission and what you did while you were there.

BROWN: So for me, it was it was the same, similar that I would just I would do back at, the squadron at home, and I would go to work every day. And if things happened out on while they were flying their different missions of refueling, the jets that were going into and the helicopters that were going in to Somalia, then I would just be recording those, so and then doing typing other administrative tasks for, the maintenance department.

SPRAGUE: Where they, where is it just marine assets, or was it also could be Air Force?

BROWN: It could be. Yes. Yes, there was the Air Force was definitely the large presence. And the several different services were there on the, on the base with us or the airport with us.

SPRAGUE: And that was at the maybe at the international airport.

BROWN: Yes, yes.

SPRAGUE: Where do you happen to remember? Where on the airport or.

BROWN: No. Not really, no. Not really.

SPRAGUE: What were the conditions like working there?

BROWN: It was hot. Very hot. That's what I remember the most about. It was very hot. And then we stayed kind of off of where the, the airport was, and we would travel to the airport every day, and it was about to 45, half hour, 45 minute drive. From where we were staying to, where the airport was. And so we get to pass through the, the village and the, the communities along the way. And, I was very thankful to, to be an American and not live in the conditions that, a lot of those people were living in and even, like one of the first nights we were there, we had to stay in the downtown area, and, we had curfew. We couldn't go out after a certain time because especially females, it wasn't safe for us to go out. So we were restricted and then we moved to a different location that was safer.

SPRAGUE: Do you, do you was there a name with the location that was more secure and 45 minutes away? Was there a camp name or.

BROWN: It was a hotel on the beach. Okay. That works.

SPRAGUE: But you said you were at least initially. But.

BROWN: In downtown Mombasa, we stayed. Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And who, what type of security did you have while you were there? Or did you pull your own security?

BROWN: We basically pulled our own security, you know, we had. And we would get picked up and shuttled through. And I, I'm sure, you know, I, I have to say, I didn't really pay attention to that as much. You know, but I, I felt pretty safe in that aspect with all my fellow Marines on. And, it was I didn't feel like I was in danger there.

SPRAGUE: Were you locked and loaded?

BROWN: I was not. No. Okay.

SPRAGUE: Just curious. Yeah. Any security risks that you felt like when you were in transit between the two, or you felt pretty secure?

BROWN: I felt pretty secure.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BROWN: Yeah. Once we got once we got out of the downtown area of Mombasa. It was, it was, a lot safer. I don't know that I would have still traveled off by myself anywhere. I always made sure that I had, people with me, other Marines with me.

SPRAGUE: In the second location you were at. After you left downtown was a hotel on the beach?

BROWN: Yes.

SPRAGUE: Do you happen to remember the name of it?

BROWN: I don't.

SPRAGUE: Okay. No problem. I would assume. Was it just Marines there, or was it all the Allied forces at that hotel?

BROWN: It would have been, all.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BROWN: All that didn't. That could. That could go off base. Yep.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Did you have any contact with the local nationals there at all, by chance?

BROWN: Yes, I would go. We would go out along the beach and, bargain and trade, you know, trade stuff we had for thing, you know, different souvenirs and different things. So we got to kind of be amongst, different, different people while we were doing that. Hecklers and different things too.

SPRAGUE: Any particular souvenirs that you got that you liked or.

BROWN: I don't have any of those out in front of me, but we do have, have a nice, you know, chess set and, hand-carved. And, I have some things over here that I got from there as well, but. Yeah, it was a lot of just different. I got some pictures and different things that I brought back.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BROWN: Masks. Carved. Hand carved masks.

SPRAGUE: Oh, okay. What did you do during your downtime there?

BROWN: We got together, you know, after we got back from work, we get together and hang out at the pool and drink. Okay.

SPRAGUE: They did allow you to drink.

BROWN: Yes, yes.

SPRAGUE: Any other cultural differences that you noted?

BROWN: It was as we were traveling through town, you know, there was the, the the mothers and their children, and the mothers were always carrying, you know, everything on top of their heads. They lived in mud huts and a lot of their sanitary, you know, sanitary. System was out in front of them in ditches in front. So that was that was a big, a big kind of culture shock.

SPRAGUE: When, when you were staying in the hotel was, their potable water was their air conditioning.

BROWN: Yeah. We drank bottled water.

SPRAGUE: Okay. While you were there. Did you notice anything, on on their part? Did you notice while you were working? Did you notice any, peculiarities of servicing the aircraft and maintaining them in that climate? And were they the aircraft that you had brought with you from California or where they different aircraft?

BROWN: Yes. There they were, our aircraft, and we flew on them. They transported us from California all the way to, Mombasa.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BROWN: So we had to make several stops because we couldn't. That's not a direct flight. So we, had stopped in the acers, which is outside of Portugal. And so, you know, Sicily and Djibouti, Ethiopia, and then down into, Mombasa. And we, didn't get off the plane when we were in Djibouti. And so we sat and refueled and then took off right away.

SPRAGUE: Did the heat or the sand, did that affect maintenance at all or what? Any peculiarities?

BROWN: Not that I remember. You know, because our planes are pretty versatile. So they could get up and and fly. So.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Let's see. Do you remember any, particular missions coming in, doing any particular mission profiles that were unusual or interesting to you?

BROWN: I didn't get to, really partake in that information. That was not part of my job.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BROWN: So, I can't say that, but I was able to go on a refueling mission, and I do have a picture of that. We'd love to see it. So this is me, on the back of the KC 130 refueling, stage 53.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BROWN: And so the doors open, the cargo doors open in the back.

SPRAGUE: Wow. So did they. I've got ask. Did they have, like, a safety plan?

BROWN: Yes. So I'm definitely attached to it. So I don't fall out the back. And I have a harness. Yeah, I have a full harness on. And then attached to the plane and on that same flight, I also, got to go up into the cockpit and, got to fly the plane. So that was kind of cool too.

SPRAGUE: Wow. So what were your impressions of that of that whole mission?

BROWN: Well, I had a lot of respect for, what the both my enlisted and officers did, and our, our pilots, to be able to maintain that aircraft and, and have another aircraft come up to them and, do that all safely. It was a lot of training and a lot of skill.

SPRAGUE: Were there any situations where you were under fire during that operation?

BROWN: No, no.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Did you have any I've got to ask any holdovers or remainders from the mission that had completed the year before from Rwanda, Operation Distant Rudder at that airport?

BROWN: Not. I wasn't a part of any of that. My husband, however, was okay. So he he partook in that.

SPRAGUE: In operation distant. Right. Okay. Okay. So. Anything else about that deployment to Mombasa in 95 that you want to talk about? Or show us?

BROWN: Oh, yeah. Not not really. I think that it was, for me, it was just a neat experience to be able to to deploy and see another country. And, I wish I could have been able to do more of that.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What was it like coming back to the United States after that?

BROWN: So I was away from my husband for a month. So that was a nice greeting to get to see him again and again. You know, the only way we had communication then was through mail. So, we would get send postcards back and forth to each other and, so we didn't that being on a month and then or so and then coming back and seeing them face to face for the first time was pretty nice. And, and all my friends. And getting back to, to normal life.

SPRAGUE: You're back in the States. Tell me what happens. You're back. It's 95. It's mid 95. You go back to the unit. What was that like?

BROWN: I, just kind of picked up where where I left off, and, was a part of a, meritorious mass and got promoted again and, to corporal and.

SPRAGUE: What is a meritorious mask for those who don't know?

BROWN: So that's an opportunity to, go through some special inspections in order to get promoted. So you get extra placement, I guess, in order to because usually your promotions come down, with a number. And if you have met that number and don't ask me how that all works, because I'm really not familiar with it, I can't remember. But this was I had to go through extra training. I had to do a drill. I had to, complete certain inspections, uniform inspections and things like that to. And in order to get that.

SPRAGUE: And, what's the difference in terms of going from a lance corporal to a corporal in the Marine Corps and how that level of respect changes? Tell me a little bit about that.

BROWN: So now you're you're have more responsibility. And, I was, actually put in charge of our night shift, and that was rare for a corporal to have that position.

SPRAGUE: Tell me about what that leadership experience was like. If you would.

BROWN: Yeah. Yeah. It was, I liked being in charge. I've always been, a person to take charge and be a leader. So I was I felt kind of in my element.

SPRAGUE: Okay. I've got to ask, where did you feel like, there was ever any discrimination against you as a woman in that role, or was that meant for man, maybe.

BROWN: I personally didn't feel that I was discriminated against. I think I worked with, a bunch of great Marines, and I think we all had respect for one another. I think that I know that happened and other, areas of the Marine Corps and other services. But personally, I, I didn't feel that way. Okay.

SPRAGUE: And, I've got to ask this question. Any sexual harassment?

BROWN: No. No. I do think being a female in a male dominated, area is. Makes you work harder. So I felt that I always had to work harder.

SPRAGUE: What? As a corporal, you're now an NCO?

BROWN: Yes.

SPRAGUE: What does that. What what did that mean to you as a marine?

BROWN: That's a good question. I just think that. Had I chosen, I did choose to, get out of the Marines, but, I was at that time, I was thinking of it as a possible career for me to stay in and keep going with it.

SPRAGUE: Tell me about, 96, what happened then, and your continued service at El Toro?

BROWN: Sure. So I did, end up having a child while I was in, the Marine Corps, in, excuse me. March of 1996. And, our daughter Haley. And so that that's pretty much what changed things for me. My husband ended up getting he was gone 30 days over to Kuwait. And then right before I had our daughter. And then he got orders to go to Okinawa for a one year unaccompanied tour. And three months after she was born. So he got the orders right before she was born. So, that that was a decision for me that I ended up getting out. I needed to be there for our daughter. And our daughter, has special needs. She has autism. And, it took time to to figure that out at the time, but, we did end up I did end up choosing to, to separate. However, I did extend six months to try to go over to Okinawa with my husband, and he was going to and do a three year a company tour and take our daughter. It just didn't end up working out. But that would have been something that I was still considering. I was still considering, staying in long term and retiring. I think we both were, but circumstances, were when otherwise.

SPRAGUE: So you chose to get out. What were the terms of the, of the discharge.

BROWN: Honorable.

SPRAGUE: Honorable and for the good of the service or how did that enlistment end?

BROWN: It just I my, I, like I said I had extended for six months, which is what took me to the March of 1997. And then when that date was up, then I just, I separated. Okay. So pretty, pretty straightforward. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yep.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What, did you have any experience? I've got to ask, any thoughts on. They started sending Marines back to this marine combat training and late 96 or early 97. That might have been after your your time or. I don't know, or.

BROWN: So I'm not really sure. When they stopped it because my husband had gone through mkt. Okay. So and he would have that would have been in that 91.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BROWN: So 9192. So if they stopped it in between there, I wouldn't I guess I didn't know that they had stopped it, but I think I now I don't know if women maybe women are going through it now and that's something we didn't have to do. So I ended boot camp, my 16 weeks of boot camp, and then right to my a school where the male Marines did their, mixed in between their A school.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Yeah, I think that was what that was later. Okay. So tell me about first of all for the civilians on the line, what's an unaccompanied tour that your husband was on. Explain that.

BROWN: So an unaccompanied tour, which is something that he goes on by himself. So I don't I can't go with him. Okay. So he's there for one year and then accompanied tours typically were three years. And your spouse would be there with you.

SPRAGUE: And your daughter. In this case, yes.

BROWN: Yes. So your family.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So, you were staying if you could have stayed in you. What of your thinking along those lines? What was that like, the day after, you know, your enlistments up and you haven't re-enlisted? What was that like? If you don't mind me asking?

BROWN: So having having to leave and and go home. Yeah, that was, kind of making me tear up a little bit, but that was, a tough time. Because, you know, you you develop these relationships, these strong relationships. And it's different than, than just, I think high school and college friendships, you know, because you're all there. You're you're all away from your families and you can't see you can't see them. There's times when you just can't see them and you don't have that choice. You can't just leave and say, oh, I'm going to quit this and go, you know, you have a commitment to commitment. And, so you you learn to really rely on your, you know, fellow Marines and brothers and sisters. So they they truly become your family. So leaving them that was hard. Having friends also either go to different locations, or to separate themselves and not see them again. That that was hard. And then it was also exciting to be able to go home and be be with my family. So.

SPRAGUE: So, when you went home, where where did you go?

BROWN: So I went to my husband's hometown, and he was still in Okinawa at the time, so I really didn't have a home to go to. We, you know, so I had to go back and I stayed and lived with his parents for a little bit until I got us an apartment and had to kind of do all of those things on my own.

SPRAGUE: Set up a household? Yes. Everything. Yeah. Organized. What was that like?

BROWN: Yeah. That, you know, I think my, my training and, from the Marines and growing up, you know, with a dad who was always a businessman, entrepreneur, gave me the skills I needed to to do that. You know, this on my own. I knew I could. I wasn't afraid of it. I didn't like it, but I certainly wasn't afraid of it. And I did what I had to do.

SPRAGUE: So, how did you how did you get back to Wisconsin?

BROWN: So we we lived in Minnesota for a little while, and my husband really enjoyed working on aircraft while he was in, and he was a residential electrician at the time. And he decided to go back to school to Spartan School of Aeronautics in Tulsa. And so we moved down there and then, out of Tulsa or out of Tulsa. And once he graduated, he got a job with, Masada Airlines, which happened to be right near my hometown in central Wisconsin, out of the central Wisconsin airport. So, that's what brought us back here. So. Okay, I came back and, got us an apartment, and, we moved moved back here. So, and now we've been here ever since then.

SPRAGUE: Wow. Okay. Did you, have any, did you by chance use, some of your veterans benefits back here?

BROWN: Yes. I, I use the GI Bill, and went back to school and got my associate's degree and super, supervisory management, and, so more of that, you know, leadership type of responsibilities. And, just started working where I was could be in charge of other people.

SPRAGUE: How do you think, in the big scope of your career, how do you think the military fits into forming you as a leader?

BROWN: I think I it's a big part of who I am. The fact, I mean, I don't care. I guess if you're in four years, eight years, ten years. I think it's always with you and the skills you've learned from that, you carry throughout your life and into everything you do. I think, how I approach things, how, I handle things, all have come from what I learned being in the Marine Corps.

SPRAGUE: Is there any particular element of your leadership style that you think you can tie directly to the Corps and be like, that's that?

BROWN: I think. Kind of. No messing around. Like, I just want to get things done, you know, there's there's not time for emotion. There's just time to do.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And, you had mentioned, your brothers and sisters who you served with. Do you continue any of your relationships or contact with them?

BROWN: Yes, yes, a lot. Thank goodness for Facebook. That's made things a lot easier. But yeah, we we keep in contact with several different, Marines. Jason Berman would be one of, Troy Ponto.

SPRAGUE: Mark voto and these are Marines from Toro.

BROWN: Yes. Yeah. All all Marines that I served with. There's several others that we keep in contact as well.

SPRAGUE: We had talked a little bit about it during the pre-interview. Any thoughts on, El Toro being taken over by suburbia now?

BROWN: It's disappointing. It's very disappointing. Yeah. Our squadron, El Toro got shut down, and, part of of President Clinton's, time, and our squadron moved down to Miramar and, now laterals kind of just sitting there and I'm being overtaken. So I know that there's been hearing some efforts of them trying to maintain some of it. But I think it's, it's just it's going to go away. And that's, that's really sad.

SPRAGUE: Any involvement with veterans organizations here?

BROWN: Yeah. So now, I am president of the board of directors for Stable Hands Equine Therapy Center. And, I am, also an equine assisted learning facilitator. Excuse me. And we work we have free veterans programing. So we with the use, of our equine partners, we work with veterans teaching horsemanship skills. We also have, mental health, options available and that all using the horse as that partner to help, cope with different things. They may be going through, whether it's RTS, D or it's, just kind of getting back to civilian life after, you know, either retiring or being separated, from any service. And, it's it's very rewarding. That's, one of the biggest programs we're trying to, to grow. And I think more and more information is coming out about how horses, can are helpful in working with individuals with, different challenges mental well-being, mental wellness, physical, all of those types of things. And, I'm happy to be a part of that. And working with, different Marines, I've, haven't got to work with any Marines yet, but hoping that, we'll get some Marines to come in and take part of this for the free programing that we have. And, that's really exciting. That's where my passion is right now, is is growing our veterans programing.

SPRAGUE: When did, when did you start thinking about yourself as a veteran?

BROWN: Probably not until I, started growing the programs at Stable Hands. I, you know, I. I always, you know, I just kind of while I was marine, I always carry that with me. I'm always a marine, but didn't really think about being a veteran, you know, until, you know, started I started to get more involved in veterans programing and, talking with other veterans and just building kind of those same relationships. So now it's just a little bit different, different world. There still have those connections. And I think that that is, something that is very unique to being in the military, just in general is you can just sit down and start talking to someone who's been in the service, whether it's the Marine Corps or not. And it's like your your brothers and sisters, it's just familiar. It's home.

SPRAGUE: I agree. So we're coming up on Memorial Day. What are you going to do on Memorial Day. What do you do on Memorial Day.

BROWN: we get together with family. That's primarily what we do and kind of, if we can hit a parade, we'll, we'll get and do that and, hopefully, we belong to the VFW. So, hopefully take part in some of those activities as well.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What, if you can imagine for a minute, what do you think your life would be like if you hadn't joined the Marine Corps?

BROWN: Well, it would be totally different. I would be probably still in Florida working and and had gone to college down there and got out and, graduated and been doing something in, in, you know, in business administration or something. And, so yeah, my whole life would have been different.

SPRAGUE: How do you think it would be different?

BROWN: Well, I wouldn't have met the, people that I have, you know, I wouldn't have had those strong, lasting friendships and, you know, met my husband and had my family. So thinking about that, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't have wanted it would never have changed the decision I made. So.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What motivated you to do this interview?

BROWN: I think just telling my story is, you know, not, very active one, I would say, but I think it's every person that's been in the military has something to to say and a story to tell. And, I think that it's important for people who come behind us, women who come behind us. And I think that was the biggest thing for me was just from a female marine perspective, because we're a small group and, that it's it's achievable. You can do it. And, it really it really does, impact your life.

SPRAGUE: Did we miss anything that you'd like to cover?

BROWN: I don't think so. I think we've hit on everything.

SPRAGUE: Okay then. That's going to conclude the interview.

BROWN: Okay.

SPRAGUE: Thank you for your service.

BROWN: Thank you.

[Interview Ends]