[Interview begins]

KURTZ: It is August 16th, 2006. My name is Jim Kurtz and I'm interviewing David Zien of Eau Claire, Wisconsin, who also happens to be a state senator in Wisconsin. Uh, Dave, when and where were you born?

ZIEN: I was [XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX] but lived right outside of Cadott, seven miles southeast of Cadott on a dead-end road.

KURTZ: Okay, and what was the date?

ZIEN: [XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX].

KURTZ: And where did you grow up?

ZIEN: I grew up in the Cadott area, born and raised at the back end of a dead end road. I remember the day we got a sewer put in. I remember taking a bath in the kitchen sink. And we were a farm family. We had about probably 40, 50 head of cattle, calves–heifers, and dairy farm and just, it was a great upbringing.

KURTZ: Okay. And did you do farm chores and all of that as you were growing up?

ZIEN: Absolutely. And I could have took over the farm, but I wanted to be a patriotic American, enlisted in the United States Marine Corps instead. I went to school at Cadott High School. And I used to– Always a little bit different. Rebel Maverick. Some say outlaw of sorts, but. I used to run into town, seven miles one direction and run back at night, and people thought I was crazy for doing that. But I'd cut across the fields and the swamps and the woods. I went to state in high school. I was always an overachiever. I went to state in play acting, forensics, cross-country and wrestling. That's when all the schools were together, A, B and C schools.

KURTZ: So And what year did you graduate from Cadott High School?

ZIEN: 1968.

KURTZ: 1968. And in 1968 was towards the middle of the Vietnam War. Did you have any impressions about the Vietnam War one way or another?

ZIEN: Oh, I just, I guess I've always felt that it was a patriotic, we were stopping the flow of communism. And I had some role models that were Marines. My uncle Carl from West Dallas, who has always been a role model for me, he was a Marine. I had a good friend's father, John [Jankowski??], and I ended up enlisting with Larry Jankowski, his dad was in the Marines, and I just idolized Marines, and the pride, the patriotism, the prestige, and the image, the camaraderie, the cohesiveness. I always wanted to be a Marine. I think, and I guess I did.

KURTZ: Is it by basis of what these people told you or just observing your body language? What were some of the things that attracted you to all of that?

ZIEN: Okay. I guess physically fit and patriotic, and the in – the Marines first in, first out. And I just always, I guess watching the movies and–

KURTZ: Okay, but the movies, did John Wayne and that whole genre of movies influence you in any way?

ZIEN: Somewhat. And I had other friends that were Marines. Tom [Wolzo??], he was one of my idols in high school, he's two years older than I was. And as it came to be, we met each other in Okinawa after Vietnam, and he had served in Con Thien ,and he got killed in this snowmobile accident, December 13th, 1970. He was one of my role models, and there was a few other people that I just, I just wanted to follow their example.

KURTZ: What did you think about, in 1968, there was the anti-war movement was beginning. Do you have any thoughts about that?

ZIEN: Just that the anti-war movement, I, I guess I was always open-minded. They had their right to do it. And I guess I just didn't think much of it. I just couldn't see why individuals, Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard were over there serving our country, sacrificing themselves, and why should people be protesting? I just didn't really agree with it.

KURTZ: And so you chose to join the Marine Corps. So what did you do between graduating from high school in the summer of '68 to December of '68 when you went to the Marine Corps?

ZIEN: I, I worked at a Stardust drive-in theater. I worked on a farm as a farmhand. And we had sold our farm in April or May of 1968. So I was off the farm and I guess– I took a trip. I left for about two weeks, drove a car, a '61 Chevy up to Bella Coola, Prince Rupert, Canada. And then I worked at the feed mill before that. Oh, then I went to– there was actually six of us that enlisted and I was the only one that actually followed through and passed the physical. So I went down to Aurora Broadview, Illinois, and worked at International Harvester to recruit my friend's son or my friend, whose father was a marine, John Jankowski. His son was Larry. Larry and I entered the Marine Corps together.

KURTZ: Okay.

ZIEN: And as irony might have it, Friday night, we talked to Dave Green, who had a sixth grade education, and we talked him into entering. Sunday afternoon, we had our going away party. Monday morning we went to, or Sunday night we went to AAFES [Army and Air Force Exchange Service] Minneapolis and he passed his physical on Monday. And Monday night he was a San Diego Marine Corps Recruit depot, with a sixth grade education. So Larry Jankowski, Dave Green, and myself were on the buddy plan.

KURTZ: So you were at the boot in San Diego.

ZIEN: San Diego, California, correct.

KURTZ: Right. And does anything stand out about boot camp?

ZIEN: When we got there, what stands out is that we were going to see palm trees and girls in bikinis and we never saw all that. There was like the Marines, and it rained and rained and rained and of course, boot camp. You hear all your stories about boot camp and cutting off your hair, standing for hours. I remember one time, Larry, the drill instructor, my hat was on crooked and the drill instructor said, “Private Zien, are you crazy?” And you always gotta agree. And I said, “Yes, sir!” And Larry Jankowski started laughing, and that DI just punched a living heck out of him. And I remember another time, Dave had something in his wallet that he shouldn't have had, a prophylactic, a rubber, and he was trying to hide it in the showroom, and they found it. And they really give him the grief. And boot camp, I was honor man, platoon honor man in boot camp, which, you know, excelled, I got PFC right out of boot camp, I excelled in leadership and perseverance, physical, mental, emotional. And I was the leader of the platoon. Platoon honor man, which was a big honor. I did not know I was getting that. All I knew that I worked real hard and I did not want to die in Vietnam. And I knew I was going to Vietnam, and infantry training and by golly, June, I was in Vietnam.

KURTZ: What did they tell you about Vietnam in boot camp? Did they use it as a threat or did they give you positive training, you know, about Vietnam?

ZIEN: It was positive training, Jim, it was absolutely “kill VC,” when we get up or get down and, “No matter how rough it is in boot camp, you're going to be wet and cold and hungry and tired, but it's going to be worse than Vietnam.” And I could not imagine it got worse. Infantry training, the same way. But, you know–

KURTZ: So you're now talking about after boot camp, you went to an Advanced Infantry Training course and that was more of the same, basically?

ZIEN: Yep, more of the same.

KURTZ: What kind of weapons were you trained on?

ZIEN: M16, M79 grenade launcher, M60 machine gun– oh boy. 45 caliber pistol, grenades.

KURTZ: Any laws or?

ZIEN: Light Artillery Weapon, absolutely. And, but I just love my AR-15, oh, excuse me, M16. We were trained on the M14 and the M16, we were in that era of both. But I, I loved the weapon, we had to sleep with the weapon and we had to call it our name. So I called mine Betsy like Davy Crockett called his gun Betsy. I don't know if you called yours any names, Jim, but I just, I did not mind boot camp and infantry training, other than being homesick for my family, my parents, my brother and girlfriend.

KURTZ: What did your family think about you joining the military?

ZIEN: My mother was always overprotective, worried. My dad was real quiet, real shy, and he doesn't speak his emotions, doesn't show his emotions. But they were worried, of course, as any parents would be.

KURTZ: So when you complete, is there anything that stands out about your boot camp and advanced infantry training you haven't told us?

ZIEN: Oh, absolutely. I remember, at infantry training, they paraded myself and Larry Jankowski in front of the whole battalion because we had been picked up for underage drinking. And, you know, it was like, almost like a shit bird kind of thing, only we weren't shit birds. There was a whole mess of us that got picked up. But here we were going to Vietnam and they paraded us, not so much for underage drinking, but for getting caught. I mean, 99 out of 100 people were drinking. I mean, but in California in those years, it was 21 year old drinking law, and of course, I had just turned 19. So, but hey, that was kind of sad. But afterwards it was almost like you were, we were heroes for, you know, getting in front of the battalion. And, uh–

KURTZ: Did you– after you completed your advanced infantry training, was Vietnam the next stop?

ZIEN: We got to come home on leave.

KURTZ: Okay.

ZIEN: I think it was a 30-day leave, and yeah.

KURTZ: What was the reaction of your friends and family that you were going to Vietnam when you went home on leave?

ZIEN: When I went home on leave, I was like a big drunk. I drank a lot. And it was like, you know, a lot of people felt sorry for us, a lot of people. And they didn't say we were praying for us, like they do now. But it was anxiety. It was, hope you make it back, be safe.

KURTZ: What were your feelings?

ZIEN: Apprehensive. And I remember after we got done with leave, Larry and I and Dave went to Tijuana, Mexico, from Camp Pendleton. And we had openly talked about going to Canada. I mean, but we did not have enough money for a bus ticket to go to Canada. Then we got split up from Dave, and Dave got caught in a house of little repute, and they stole his clothes and his wallet, and his shoes and his socks and everything he had. He came to the Tijuana-San Diego border with a trash can lid as underwear, to shield himself, which the SPs, Shore Patrol, Navy, laughed and laughed. No, I was scared, apprehensive. And, we had talked about going to Canada–

KURTZ: Why, why did you–

ZIEN: Only talked.

KURTZ: Oh, it was only talk. I mean, then it was not, because you said before you had a pretty deeply ingrained, patriotic feeling, so just talking about Canada was just discussing an option that you weren't going to follow.

ZIEN: That's pretty much it.

KURTZ: Yeah.

ZIEN: But, you know, and in those years, 19 years old, I always wondered, what if we had had thousands of dollars apiece? We talked about hunting, fishing in Canada. You know, I mean.

KURTZ: Was there–

ZIEN: But it was only talk.

KURTZ: Was there much talk among any of the other Marines like that?

ZIEN: Very little, very little.

KURTZ: Okay. So when you– how did you get to Vietnam?

ZIEN: We flew a plane to Hawaii and they wouldn't even let us out of the chain link fence. You know, we could see the palm trees in the heat. And then we flew by plane to Okinawa. And then, if I can recall right, it was shipped to Da Nang.

KURTZ: So when you went to Okinawa, did you, was that where you were issued the Vietnam-type equipment and stuff like that?

ZIEN: It seems to me we were, but we didn't get a M-16 until we got to Quang Tri, Quang Tri Province.

KURTZ: So do you remember what kind of a ship you went on from Okinawa to Vietnam?

ZIEN: Um. I might have misspoken, Jim. I went from a ship from Vietnam after, in November of '69, after we got all–

KURTZ: Okay.

ZIEN: The ship went from Vietnam to Okinawa.

KURTZ: Okay. So you probably flew by C-130 or something like that–

ZIEN: It was jet to Okinawa.

KURTZ: Okay.

ZIEN: Maybe it was a C-130 to Quang Tri Province. Quang Tri and Dong Ha, next to each other. And then from there, I went back into the bush.

KURTZ: So you went to Quang–so you didn't go to Da Nang, you went to Quang Tri, probably, or–

ZIEN: I, um.

KURTZ: What is it, the port?

ZIEN: I can't remember. It seems to me we might've went to Da Nang and went to another plane to Quang Tri, I'd have to look up my letters then.

KURTZ: Did you know what unit you were going to when you were in Okinawa, or was that decision made in Vietnam?

ZIEN: I think Okinawa, they said Third Marine Division.

KURTZ: Okay. And–

ZIEN: That's all I knew.

KURTZ: And did that make any impression on you one way or another?

ZIEN: Oh I, yeah, I wanted to go to the Third Marine Division. They're the ones up by the DMZ up North. And I, for some reason, I always wanted to be up northern, north part of South Vietnam. The DMZ kind of been treatin' me. That's where the heaviest fighting was. The First Marine Division was down by Da Nang. And I guess I wanted to you know, I didn't mind combat. I didn't, I wanted to live. I didn't want to die, but I wanted to go where the action was, I guess.

KURTZ: Were there some NCOs that influenced you to want to do that, or was that just you being, wanting to go just where the action was?

ZIEN: I guess I wanted just to go where the action was. It had seemed to me some NCOs, some drill instructors, some infantry training officers, maybe they talked about their Vietnam experiences. And I always heard about Khe Sanh, and I guess I wanted to go there.

KURTZ: Okay. What was your first impressions when you landed in Vietnam?

ZIEN: Oh boy. I remember the civilians, looking at the civilians and the beauty of the terrain, the rural terrain. It was just a fantastically beautiful country. And later on, when we went into some of our patrols, it was just a beautiful country. I just loved it.

KURTZ: What about the temperature and smell and anything like that? Make any impression?

ZIEN: The jungle rot, the leeches, the snakes, the scorpions, the bugs, the termites, the– that was insidious, hideous. It was unbelievably just bad. The heat, the smell, the monsoon rains. And I was point man– When I first got there, when they got, they found out I had been a Marine Corps honor man, they put me as point, right away. And hey, that's– I didn't mind that point. And I remember, my mother had sent me a Bowie knife and rather than take the trails, rather than take where there could be booby traps, ambushes, where there could be punji pits, I'd blaze a trail across country, and they'd give me the grid coordinates, and instead of the ambushes and the punji pits, I would have to blaze a trail. And I just loved it. I mean, it was ten times more work than just walking on the trail, but it was ten times more safe. But then I'd run across, you know, the bees, the insects, the snakes, and I didn't mind that. I remember how beautiful the country was at night and the cloud formations, and we kinda, make a little clearing for a landing zone or something, I remember the breeze, the wind, it was just like camping.

KURTZ: At night, did you dig night defense positions?

ZIEN: Fighting holes.

KURTZ: Fighting holes?

ZIEN: Yeah, we dug fighting holes. We put up our ponchos and if was raining. But for the–

KURTZ: Were you resupplied at night typically, or did you carry your supplies in?

ZIEN: We carried our supplies. We were reconnaissance, search and destroy. Every few days they'd bring in choppers for food, C-rations, if I can recall. And I remember–

KURTZ: How often did you get changed, the uniforms?

ZIEN: Oh my gosh. Not very often. Oh boy, I'd have to say every couple weeks or something–

KURTZ: So if something tore or something like that, you were just stuck with it.

ZIEN: Yeah, we had our own, we could sew our stuff. When we'd go into a stream or something, we would wash our own clothes. I remember one time I was point man, and we found this waterfalls and it was a beautiful, we took pictures, a couple of us took pictures. And then as my reward for being point man to find this waterfall, 'cause we had spent a couple hours there, cleaning, washing our clothes, and then, of course, they dried real fast in the heat, or we'd wear them wet. That felt good. But we took off and I was the last because my reward was, I didn't have to be point any more. And the new point man took a trail along this stream, you know, on both sides of the stream, there was trails. And I had forgotten my camera, you know, after all this work, I had taken pictures. So I ran back, you know, and got up the trail a couple hundred yards, I ran back and here's like, must've been 7 or 8 NVA [North Vietnam Army] regulars. They were, you know, I come around this corner into the clearing by the waterfalls and I was running because I want to get back to the unit, and [makes whooping noise] you know, here's, and they were going through our C-rations and stuff. They saw me, and at least 6, 8 of them. And I saw them at the same time and boy, they dove for cover, and I just wheeled around and ran like a chicken with his head cut off. I mean, they probably thought there was more of me than one. And I don't know how many of them there were, but I'll never forget that as long as I–

KURTZ: So you never got your camera back?

ZIEN: Absolutely not. And I wonder if somebody's got that camera. I want to see those pictures.

KURTZ: [Laughs] When you talked about the point man that took over for you going down the trail, who made the decisions on which kind of a route you would take? Would it be the point man or would it be?

ZIEN: Oh no, oh no, no. It was the, at that time we had a platoon commander, it was a platoon-size operation. So the first lieutenant, I think his name was Kelly, First Lieutenant Kelly, made that decision and he liked what I did. I got along with him good, but I was just a grunt, you know, 311 rifleman, point man. And he liked doing what I did, going across country. And it was a little bit slower going, obviously, but in the long run it was safer, in the long run.

KURTZ: Was he under some pressure to go faster than you were going?

ZIEN: Well when you did your group coordinates, and the trail did not go to where we were always going.

KURTZ: Yeah.

ZIEN: So if you take ridges, you can go, you know, clicks away, miles away from your destination. So when I did cross-country, and kept that compass in my hands, you know, it was probably the same.

KURTZ: Did you pace, or did you, you know when you're going to a distance, I mean, so how did you know far you had gone?

ZIEN: Oh boy. We didn't have GPSs in those years. Usually, a lot of times the grid coordinates were the top of hills.

KURTZ: Okay. So you had some geological or geographic feature that you were going to, like a junction of a trail or a hilltop or a stream crossing or something like that. So that was what you–

ZIEN: And they were on the PRC-25 radio. And I guess–

KURTZ: Were you getting some help from the air, from a helicopter or something?

ZIEN: Sometimes, yes. They had these spotter helicopters, they had Hueys and Cobras. But then we'd send in smoke, bring in helicopters when we wanted to get replenished with the supplies, ammunition, C-rations, whatever. You ask some good questions, Jim, might take me a while to think of some of this stuff. [Kurtz laughs]

KURTZ: Basically, how were you received when you first came into your unit?

ZIEN: As FNG.

KURTZ: Okay. And how long did it take you to lose that moniker of being a cherry or FNG?

ZIEN: Oh jeez. It took a few weeks and FNGs were almost like you weren't quite human. I mean if an FNG got killed, I mean, hey, you know, if they got sent back to the world, if they got, what, their million-dollar wound, it wasn't that big of a thing, you know. But if you were there for a few months, got a little salty, especially if you got towards the end of your tour, if you got hurt or killed then, it was just absolutely bad.

KURTZ: So for you to become more accepted or to take getting into some major contact or, you know, showing good performance over a period of time.

ZIEN: Well, I was only there for like a few weeks and I was point. I come over this little ridge and there was a stream with some big rocks. And I saw two NVA regulars and they had their clothes off. And I remember the bandoliers, ammunition, and their rifles were on the rocks, their clothes were on the rocks. They were pretty much naked, both of them, maybe there were 3 of them, two of them for sure. And my first instinct was to shoot them all. But they did not see me. So I dropped back and I passed the word back, and First Lieutenant Kelly come up. And we were going to surround them because, you know, I was on a little ridge, you know, and it was down a little bit of a ravine, and we're going to surround them. And we surrounded them. To make a long story short, Schmitty from Louisiana and McGraw, McGraw was from Montana. McGraw was a squad leader, and Schmitty and McGraw and I, we were stealthily stalking. We were going to, we were surrounding this ravine, and we're going to open up and kill however many NVA regulars there were. And Schmitty was off to the side and somehow he got screwed up and he thought front was right. I remember he was on our left. Front was right, and he got screwed up and right was front, and he opened up with his AR, or his M-16. So he opened up and we usually carried 18 of 20, 20 round clip, we only put 18 rounds in, but he emptied his whole clip. And he was shooting at McGraw and I, and McGraw and I instinctively went down and those bullets pummeled the log, that had we not dropped down, and we could hear whistling through the bamboo and ricocheting and [makes shooting sound effects], you know, hitting the bamboo. But to make a long story short, Schmitty, you know, should have been court-martialed. You know, he was just a, kind of a little bit, he was Southern– he was the old man of the group. He was 23 years old, he was the old man, drafted. And, you know.

KURTZ: So he was drafted into the Marine Corps.

ZIEN: Yeah, from Louisiana. But after that, you know, number one, should I have killed those 2 or 3 NVAs? Hey, maybe I should have, but I'm glad I didn't. Uh, I don't like killing anything now. But anyway, number two, he was a shit bird. Number three, McGraw and I were lucky to be alive. I mean, those bullets, and there was a number of times I was almost killed by our own guys.

KURTZ: What happened when there was mistakes made like this, were the NCOs and lieutenants on top of that, or did they do anything about it or?

ZIEN: Oh boy, we had a guy I took a C-rat opener like I've got on here, and he punched a couple of holes in his wrist. He said a rat bit him, and they give them those rabies shots in the stomach. And then he told the truth, after a few shots, he said “No, I'm lying. I just didn't want to go on patrol because the groups, excuse me, the NVA were all over,” and they were going to court-martial. Parker, Parker was his name, Parker, blonde-haired guy from the East Coast somewhere. I don't know. They sent him to the rear and he was not with our unit anymore, but they were going to court-martial him for lying like that. We had another guy, Roman, from Illinois, who purposely jumped off a cliff, or maybe it was a B-52 hole, and he sprained or broke his ankle and he got sent back to the rear. But he admitted that he did it on purpose because we could hear gooks, excuse me, the NVA hollering at night, [Zien says something in Vietnamese] they were trying to get us to come outside the wires. But we were going north into the DMZ area, and Roman didn't want to go up there, so he jumped off and now. When he went back, it was reputed they were going to court-martial him.

KURTZ: So that was a discipline for self-inflicted wounds and lying and stuff like that. But if somebody shot in the wrong direction by mistake, that's what it was.

ZIEN: We had a guy, oh boy. We had a guy, we were on an eight-man squad. I think about eight of us. We were on an ambush, a night ambush. And this guy from Michigan, oh if I could remember his name. Oh boy, I can't. But he fell asleep on purpose. He was cold and it was raining, so he fell asleep, and the next morning, McGraw, squad leader from Montana, beat him up. I mean, beat the living crap of him. They had a helicopter, whatever his name was, I'll remember it before the session, hopefully. But they helicoptered him out because he was beat up so bad. McGraw, to my knowledge, never got disciplined, because he was almost his rotation basis, his years were almost up in Vietnam. And they just, hey, but hey, I mean, if the NVA, they could have wiped us all out. So its a justifiable injury.

KURTZ: Valid. And that sends a message to everybody else that you don't do that.

ZIEN: You know, a good squad disciplined his Marines. I mean, I mean, we could have been killed. We had, the word had been that a marine unit had this piano wire thing they, with handles on it, they put over their– a crop?

KURTZ: A garrote.

ZIEN: Garrote, yeah. Garrote, garrote, garrote. Okay, you probably know more about that, I should be interviewing you! [Kurtz laughs] But anyway, there was like 11 or 12 Marines on one ambush. They set up an ambush in front of some NVA, and they all were basically beheaded from the garrote. The piano wire would be put over their head, and they just pull it tight and, you know.

KURTZ: Yeah. So how long were you out in the field typically before you'd go back to a base camp? [Muffling in the microphone] You said that you came back for a few days? What did you do during those few days to rest?

ZIEN: Okay, we had been a few weeks' operation. Then we come back for a few days.

KURTZ: Yeah. What did you do during those few days?

ZIEN: Drank warm beer.

KURTZ: Drank warm beer. Do you remember what kind it was?

ZIEN: Oh my gosh.

KURTZ: It wasn't Leinie's, I bet.

ZIEN: Absolutely not. Olympia?

KURTZ: Okay.

ZIEN: Olympia beer. But it was warm, just like P-I-S-S. But we drank warm beer, got drunk. I got pictures of a lot of this.

KURTZ: Yeah.

ZIEN: I mean, it was a strong camaraderie, went to the PX and ate lots of candy, and spent whatever money we had. Wrote a lot of letters home.

KURTZ: Did you get any special food?

ZIEN: Yeah, we got hot meals. Hot meals was–

KURTZ: Something new.

ZIEN: Oh, that was wonderful.

KURTZ: Was there any drug use up there?

ZIEN: Marijuana. Marijuana, a little bit of marijuana. And there was some harder stuff, but I never seen, or that I can recall.

KURTZ: Was it just marijuana when you were back in the firebase or base camp?

ZIEN: Yeah.

KURTZ: Not out in the field.

ZIEN: No, not out in the field. And I got to admit, I smoked a lot of cigarettes over there, Chesterfield, Camel, Cool, Newport. Whatever cigarettes I could get, I would smoke. And, but I just loved smoking cigarettes. But in boot camp, they conditioned you that way, if you smoked, you got to take cigarette breaks. If you didn't smoke, you had to clean up cigarette butts. So they forced me, they intended you in order to smoke. So I just, I smoked a lot. Yeah.

KURTZ: So then you said you went out then a long mission. Was that again, pretty typical, just going out from place to place, to grid coordinate?

ZIEN: Well, pretty much. But this was a 48-day operation, search and destroy. And I'm from Feelers, that was a battalion-size operation. I think it was battalion, or maybe Lima Company, but Third Battalion, Fourth Marine Regimen, Third Marine Division. It was a battalion operation, but the companies went their separate directions. And we were on Firebase Russell, Khe Khe Bridge. We got overrun at Khe Khe bridge later on. We were at Signal Hill, Dong Ha Mountain. We went into Khe Sanh from the West. We were going to reopen Khe Sanh Firebase.

KURTZ: What did Khe Sanh look like when you went over there?

ZIEN: It was growing over. There were a lot of NVA in the hills, and the night we were there, we were 100% alert because the spotter planes that you're surrounded and they're coming from all directions. They lit up with F-4 Phantoms and Puff Magic Dragon, but they were coming to wipe us out. But we were choppered out at like 4:00, 4:30 in the morning, they had chop–

KURTZ: Okay. So they never probed your, had a chance to prove–

ZIEN: They were probing our wires at night, yep. They turned our claymores around. Had we detonated our claymores, in fact we didn't even pull up our claymores. Some of them–

KURTZ: Just left them there.

ZIEN: Because they could have been booby trapped. And, [speaks Vietnamese phrase] I'll never forget that as long as I live.

KURTZ: When they landed the helicopters in, did they have enough to get the whole company out or did they have to do more than one lift?

ZIEN: It took 'em a while. Let me see, at that time, there were probably at least 100 of us there.

KURTZ: So it would be a company.

ZIEN: Yeah, Lima company, maybe they were. It seems to be on a north side of the Khe Sanh, toward the hills there were some more Marines. So but they weren't close to us, but they choppered us all out, 4:00, 4:30 in the morning.

KURTZ: The NVA shoot at those helicopters when they were pulling out?

ZIEN: I can't remember.

KURTZ: Okay.

ZIEN: I can't remember.

KURTZ: Well, I guess the reason I ask you the question, do you have enough helicopters or were some people left back and they have to come back to get them? Or were they able to get all of your–

ZIEN: I was in some of the last to get choppered out. And I'll never forget that, you know, the word was we're reopening Khe Sanh, we were going to reopen the Khe Sanh Air Base. In my limited knowledge of Vietnam, I remember Khe Sanh, the Siege of Khe Sanh, how many Marines were killed there. But I remember we saw a C-130 or maybe it was a C-123, C-130 that was in the ground like six, eight feet. And the NVA had bamboo steps. They were salvaging that C-130, they were taking the metal.

KURTZ: Yeah.

ZIEN: They were salvaging that, and they had like platforms of bamboo, you know, steps going down. And they were using the aluminum, the steel, from that C-130. That was on the way in to Khe Sanh. And the elephant grass was growing up, you know.

KURTZ: Did you run into any natives around Khe Sanh?

ZIEN: No. And I should also tell you that we were actually in Laos in part of that 48-day operation, I did not find that out until 13 years later. The commander, the company commander at that time was company commander, First Lieutenant Kelly, company commander. Oh, I got.

KURTZ: That's alright.

ZIEN: Anyways, the company commander at the Vietnam Veterans Wall. I spearheaded a trip with Gary Wetzel, a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient. We took four school busses. Lee Dreyfus, governor at that time, helped us with a lot of the money, paid for the busses to go to Washington, D.C. We had a great time, drank a lot, but it was at the Marine Corps reunion and the only person there from Lima Company, Third Battalion, Fourth Marine Regiment, Third Marine Division, was the company commander at the time. And before I got to Vietnam, he had sent the Marines out to assault a hill and they were killed. And he felt guilty about that. But he had post-traumatic stress. But he shared with me that we had actually been in Laos, you know, because he was a company commander when I first got to Vietnam. But he left after a few months. And anyways–

KURTZ: Did you know when you were going to these different places? I mean, you probably find out at night or first thing in the morning you were going to go out and go on a mission to these coordinates and all that. Did you know why you were going there?

ZIEN: Search and destroy, and reconnaissance. One time I was a point man, and that was– every time we'd go over a ridge, and I was point man for day after day.

KURTZ: Yeah.

ZIEN: And I loved it. I felt safer. And company commander, and the platoon commander, they all felt safer, and that's where I was at. And until I get exhausted, the heat. But I, every ridge we went over was beautiful terrain, beautiful area, different terrain, different plants, different animals. And I found, I'd run across a huge base camp, a huge base camp. I'll never forget they had bamboo bleachers and in the center they had a Marine Corps helmet and flak jacket. And in the post, they were showing how to bayonet, and you know, that you got to bayonet underneath the rib cage, go up into the heart and lungs, and pierce the diaphragm and everything, but they were teaching how to bayonet Marines. I come across the classroom and the bleachers and, real crude. And then there were, we had to dig out the shitters. And because I was point man, I didn't have to dig them out. So, I mean, a lot of times the NVA would hide their weapons constantly underneath crappers.

KURTZ: Okay. So they had actually facilities like our outhouses.

ZIEN: Just holes.

KURTZ: Just holes.

ZIEN: Yeah. Just holes, but underneath the holes, in the crappers, that's where they'd hide the weapons. But we had to dig up the crappers. But I didn't, but I, I was just about killed there. I was sitting against a tree, smoking a cigarette, and one of these ten second vipers–

KURTZ: Yeah.

ZIEN: If you get bit, you got 10 seconds to live, they say. I don't know. Anyways, this viper was, it was actually coming towards me on a limb and another Marine, you know, it was a–

KURTZ: It was a bamboo viper.

ZIEN: Bamboo viper, yeah.

KURTZ: It's very bad.

ZIEN: You could've took an E-tool, a trenching tool, and you know, caught it. I mean, hey, that thing was coming to me, it was aggressive coming towards me, but it was– We camped there that night and the next day the engineers det corded it. And when that hill blew up, it was much more than we ever thought. We never found any rifles, we found French nitroglycerin. We found old dynamite. We found chicoms, artillery shells, but we did not find any rifles. And of course, we all wanted a rifle or a pistol to take home, you know, as a souvenir. But when that hill blew up, it just [Zien imitates the noises of the hill exploding].

KURTZ: Yeah.

ZIEN: It was explosion after explosion. And I remember mortar rounds, 61 and 82 mortar rounds dropping like hail [Zien imitates the sound of artillery] all around us. But it was like raining. Thank heaven nobody got hit from some of it.

KURTZ: So these were mortar rounds when they blew the dumps, you weren't getting mortared, were you?

ZIEN: No, these were rounds that when they blew it up, they just went up into the air and we were like several hundred yards away, we were a quarter mile away. It seems to me, a quarter mile away.

KURTZ: Did the NVA bother you at all, when you were doing this?

ZIEN: No, not at the time. Another time we were at Firebase Russell, and we were blowing up Firebase Russell. The whole Third Marine Division was being pulled off and the gooks, the NVA were all around. And we were getting off that hill and it was real super hot. And I was the closest to the ammo pit. And when that, I saw flames and filaments or something, like a clear blue thing, you could hardly see it, it was so clear, 4 or 5 feet high. So I hollered, “Fire in the ammo pit!” And so we evacuated that hill. You know, you talk about hassling us.

KURTZ: Yeah.

ZIEN: There was NVA all around there. I mean, we had contact and a couple of little firefights and there was incoming every night, you know, throwing in mortars at us, and 122 rockets. But I remember we evacuated the hill and because it was improperly det-corded, the whole hill did't blow up. But I remember there was a guy, a Marine that was in a trench, and he put his arms and legs out. We tried to carry him off the hill, and he wouldn't let us. He's still there as far as I know. And there was a number of massive explosions, but the whole hill did not blow up. And after, you know, an hour or two hours, we come back. Well, no, not an hour or two hours, probably a half an hour. You know, after we were sure the explosions were gone. But Portuguese, getting back to your question, there was no contact. Now, I mean, if the NVA, they could have, I mean, they could have done like a duck shoot, turkey shoot. But Portuguese, we carried him in a stretcher, I'll never forget, his nose was burnt off. His eyelids, eyelashes, eyebrows were all burned off and his eyes were just wide open. They were burned open. He was charred black. His lips were burned off, you could see his teeth. His clothes were burned off except for around where his belt was and where his anklets were, because you know, his pubic area was charred black, and he had his hands on, we had him on his back. He was alive and his fingernails on his chest, stomach, just like you'd scratch like a chalkboard. And he was alive. Portuguese, he was an interpreter for a Kit Carson, we had a couple Kit Carsons. Kit Carsons were NVAs, regulars that defected to our side, and they were dead. And we got him on a helicopter, and word is he died on the helicopter.

KURTZ: Okay. So he was one of those Kit Carson guys.

ZIEN: No, we was the interpreter.

KURTZ: Oh, okay.

ZIEN: He was an American.

KURTZ: Okay.

ZIEN: Marine who was a Kit Carson scout interpreter.

KURTZ: Oh okay.

ZIEN: But he was from Portugal.

KURTZ: Oh, okay, gotcha.

ZIEN: His nickname was Portuguese.

KURTZ: Gotcha, gotcha.

ZIEN: Yeah, but anyways, I got a 45. A corpsman didn't need his 45 anymore, so I took his 45 and I sent, oh jeez, I sent everything home except for the large receiver and handle and the main part of barrel. But I got the whole 45 home, then I got medevacked, and I didn't get the rest of it. My squad threw away all my gear.

KURTZ: When you say you got medevacked, what happened to cause that?

ZIEN: That was in the middle of September, and I got an unidentified disease. And I remember I had unhooked a booby trap and the booby trapped exploded. And I had a burned hand, I got a picture at home that they're cutting my hair, but the booby trap had exploded, but it was like a signal flare of sorts or something. And it didn't go up that much, but I burnt my hand and a couple of days later I had a haircut and took a picture. But I had 106 fever and Doc Powers put me on a helicopter and he said, “Wild Man ain't coming back.” As if I was going to die, but I had dysentery, high fever. It wasn't malaria, it was an unidentified disease. But I went to the USS Repose for ten days, and when I come back, India Company had dropped into a hot landing zone and they asked for volunteers. I volunteered right away, but they wouldn't let me go help out India Company because they considered me a casualty because I was weak and off the hospital ship. They cut some jungle rod out of my ankles and feet, you know. But anyways, the first helicopter in got shot down. So it's lucky that I did not go in to help India Company. When I went back to the unit, unit had come out of the bush and was at Khe Khe Bridge and I went back to unit.

KURTZ: Were they surprised to see you?

ZIEN: Yeah, they didn't think I was going to live. And they had thrown away all my gear, you know.

KURTZ: And so how did you, did you get new gear then?

ZIEN: I got brand new gear, I got everything brand new.

KURTZ: So you look like a cherry then, huh?

ZIEN: Yeah, yeah, right, FNG. But we had run some patrols or missions. Oh, there was one patrol, I was in, when I got back, it was just some like monsoon-type weather. So I wanted to go shoot a pig, and I was going to be a hero, and have some fresh pork in the campfire. And I knew this old French pillbox not far from Khe– it was to the southeast of Khe Khe Bridge and it was raining. I mean, raining like you couldn't believe. So I went up there and I was going to get some, because I knew we had been on patrol there a couple of times and it was an old French pillbox. And I knew there was pigs all over.

KURTZ: These are wild pigs, right?

ZIEN: Wild pigs, yep. I was going to get myself a wild pig. And I was up there, an it's raining and I'm looking for pigs. I couldn't find any pigs. There was no tracks. [Coughs] So I'm walking and here's a Ho Chi Minh sandal track. I mean, I couldn't think, I couldn't talk. I'm all by myself. A stupid thing to do. I'm trying to be the hero of the group, trying to get some fresh pork. So I instinctively started whistling [whistles], and I grabbed my rifle by the barrel and put it on my shoulder and did an about face and just kicking like nonchalant, because I knew I was being watched and some whistle or something. “Let's go. Let's get out of here,” you know, make 'em believe there was some other Marines with me. And I walked off. But to this day, I knew I was being watched, and I saw that fresh track in the rain. In the rain.

KURTZ: Oh boy.

ZIEN: So, I mean, a couple of minutes, it would've been washed away. So I just thank God that he let me survive.

KURTZ: You said Wildman wasn't coming back. What was the origin of that nickname? Wildman.

ZIEN: Wildman, that was just, that was my nickname.

KURTZ: Now, did you earn that?

ZIEN: Oh yeah, I was, nobody could believe I could be point, you know, for hours and hours and hours like I was. And I had lots of energy, lots of gusto. I was very physically fit, and I– that was my nickname. Wildman. When we drank and partied, I liked to party hard, drink hard and have fun. But when we worked, I mean, filled up sandbags or something like that, I just worked extra hard because I didn't want to die, I wanted to live.

KURTZ: So you upheld the badger in you?

ZIEN: Yeah. There you go. There you go. The badger digging fighting holes.

KURTZ: Not one of those Minnesota gophers.

ZIEN: You know, a talk about badger, boy, I was a larger Marine. Probably weighed 180, 190 pounds at that time. But I was tunnel rat a few times.

KURTZ: How did you fit?

ZIEN: The one time I remember specifically, it was a cave, along a river bottom. And I went in. Yeah, here was a huge cave, got smaller, but I remember my hands and knees, crawling, and we had those flashlights, you know, the ones that had the dark lens.

KURTZ: Yeah.

ZIEN: And I had a 45. And I'm crawling in, and I'm worried about NVA. But I got back into that cave a ways. It was more a cave than a tunnel. But it was obviously honed out. Man, you could tell it was chipped out. And I got back in there and I felt like there was something in there. And I got back in a way further here's some excrement from rock apes, some crap from rock apes.

KURTZ: Yeah.

ZIEN: I could smell rock apes. And I DD maued out of that cave. That tunnel, whatever it was. Like you, I was more scared of those rock apes, because we always heard tales that they'd bash you with rocks, and they were ambidextrous. They could throw with both hands.

KURTZ: How big were they?

ZIEN: I never saw them.

KURTZ: Oh, okay.

ZIEN: I just heard all this talk.

KURTZ: So kind of like snipe hunting.

ZIEN: Yeah, snipe hunting. [Kurtz laughs] Yeah. Anyways, that was crazy.

KURTZ: So you were actually in Vietnam on duty from June until November of '69. We covered everything that we should have covered?

ZIEN: Oh my gosh. No.

KURTZ: Okay.

ZIEN: You got me rapping, I had a cup of coffee. But, uh, oh wow. Probably the hugest incident of my Vietnam career, and I have never forgotten it a day in my life, and I've had problems with this. And, you know, sights, sounds and smells, stench of death. You know, those of us in combat will never forget it. And the camaraderie and the cohesiveness of our, you know, and you don't have to be a Marine. You can be any branch of the service. You don't even have to be a veteran. But October 9th, 1969, the whole Third Marine Division was going to be pulled out. And probably for the week, two weeks before that, rather than go on patrol, we'd cut our patrol short. Why would we want to go up and get killed? You know, why would we wanna get in a firefight. “Hey, we're going back to the world. And we're going back to Okinawa, then we're going to cold weather training in Japan. Hey, you know what? Anything for this heat, instead of this heat.” So we cut our patrols short. I remember we'd go on the outside of the perimeter, and we'd smoke cigarettes and sleep.

KURTZ: Mm-hmm.

ZIEN: And rather than go on patrol, I remember, it was kind of comical. Squad leader, squad leader [snaps] Plummer, Plummer, Plug, Plug, P-L-U-G, Plug. Nickname. Plug was the squad leader. I was like assistant squad leader, I was a lance corporal at that time. And rather than go on patrol, rather than Zien, Wildman taking point, we'd just sit outside the wire, smoke cigarettes and sleep for hours all day. They'd call in our PRC-25, “Hey, are you sure you're here? You better be there because we're droppin' incoming.” We're laughing. We're dropping some artillery there or something, you know, some mortars, and we'll drop some mortars and, “You better be there.” We laugh. We go to sleep. Boom, boom, boom, we could hear in the distance. But this one hill, not far from Khe Khe Bridge, not far from the rock pile, which is Firebase– Um, Signal Hill you could see to the west. Not far down the mountain. Vandergriff was a few miles, Firebase Stud, Vandergriff was a few miles away. But Mutter's Ridge, Witches Tit, the NVA were cooking monkeys, somebody saw a fire, smoke from a fire. So we were supposed to go up there and wipe them out. But the bottom line is we didn't. The bottom line is we got overrun on the morning of October 9th, and that's where we think they came from. So we always had the survivor's guilt. But then that night we got overrun, there's a fire team. We're on an ambush on the side of the hill. So we get, we hear on the PRC-25 and this is the exact words they said, and I said it at a high school class, November, Veterans Day of 1993 when I was first a senator. And they wanted me to resign because I said it. But I'll say the same thing on tape of what I said. I don't mean this to be prejudicial or discriminatory or racist, but the words the submarines said, this is what they said, this is the last words they said because they were killed when we got overrun. “Gooks in wires. Gooks in the wires.” And what happened on Mutter's Ridge, Witches Tit, near Witches Tit, there were two, we had a perimeter around two knobs, look like boobs, and the command post was on one knob and there was kind of a mini command post on the other. But the NVA come on the inside of our wires and surrounded our position. And Wards was smoking marijuana, from South Carolina, North Carolina, black guy. He had come back out to his machine gun hole. This is, you know, supposedly, I mean this– Anyways, three NVA regulars were turning around a machine gun on our hill, and rather than wipe 'em out, and he didn't even have his M-16 with him, and that's a court martial offense, you gotta have your M-16 with you. Rather than tell somebody, rather than spread the word, because he was drinking and smoking marijuana, he went underneath his bunk and hid. Parks, the squad leader, Parks, Parks from Memphis, Tennessee, squad leader come around and found Wards underneath the bunk. “What the hell you doing?” And Wards is scared. I mean, he's scared. His teeth are chattering and whatever. Parks comes out. And by that time, we don't know how long it will last. We're going to guess 15 or 20 minutes, but the, maybe a half an hour, hour, I don't know, at least 15, 20 minutes. But the NVA come, and they encircle our position. Now, whether that's the only way they got in or somewhere else, I don't know. But when they opened up, it was hell bent for leather. And the Marines were shooting at Marines, NVA were shooting at Marines, and we were in an ambush. And I took point, trying to get back to the hill, and everybody was shooting, all over the place. And then they had a couple of signal flares and the signal flares went out, and there was the screaming, people dying. And I'll never forget, we heard what I thought was a turkey gobbling. [Imitates turkey gobbling sound] There were no turkeys in Vietnam. I had never heard this before [continues making sound] Something like that. And the next day, Tex, they had tried draggin' Tex out of the wires, and he had been shot in the hip and the leg. The gooks, gooks, were going to take him out, you know, torture him or whatever, and have their fun with him. And, you know, he didn't want to live. We had our 20th anniversary. 1989. Parks was there and, Parks was there, Doc was there. Oh, there was like, a guy writing a book from Nebraska. He's writing a book about his experience in Vietnam, and he's focusing in on when we got overrun. But they were there. And I says, “You know, I've had nightmares,” in all these years and about Tex. And I says, “I looked at Vietnam Veterans Wall and looked at the, you know, all the Marines killed October 9th, and could never find him. Then I knew we had an Army detachment up there on a 106. And some of those Army guys got killed that night. And I'm the only one that's got pictures. And on the landing zone, I got the pictures of nine Marines laid in a row, of which one of my best friends was Cox from Florida and Shields from Oklahoma, James Shields. They named a school gymnasium after him. Anyway, I said, “I could never get out of my mind. Tex. Who was he? I remember his nickname. Do you remember?” And somebody from our unit, oh, Parks later committed suicide. He was a police officer for Memphis, Tennessee for 20, 20 years or something. 20 something years. Then he committed suicide. Tony Parks, Tony Parks. Memphis, Tennessee. Tony Parks, I don't know if it was Tony Parks, or somebody said, “Oh, Tex. He wasn't from Texas. He was from Michigan. But he was born in Texas. And he always wanted to be called Tex. His nickname was Tex.” I mean, that's why I could never find his name on the Vietnam Veterans Wall. And I mean, but anyways, back to that night. I helped carry bodies next day and Shields, my best friend, we talked about motorcycles and girls, and, um, he was face down in the poncho. And when we put him on the poncho, we had no idea who he was. And his bowels were blown out. And, you know, the stench. When we got the lightings on, somebody let go of one end of the poncho and he rolled out. His tongue was out. His eyes were opened. I hope his family never hears this, but it was Shields, from Oklahoma. Kiowa. Kiowa, Oklahoma.

[Cut in recording]

KURTZ: When you were talking about this, how did the night end with them? Did they just fade away at first light or, you know, how did this situation end, being overrun?

ZIEN: We brought in, um, F-4s. And, but they did the outer perimeter. And the gunships came in with rockets and 50 cals. [Clattering sounds] And they said that our count was like 40 or 50 NVAs. There was only five NVAs inside the wires. And I remember, I helped bury them next to the landing zone, I could go back there at this very time. I don't care how much jungle has grown up. I don't care if there's bamboo, elephant grass. I remember it. I got pictures of the hills in the distance. I could cite that exact place. But a couple of weeks after we got overrun, we did a patrol up there. And NVA, you know how you get rid of rigor mortis and the monsoons wash some of the top dirt away, they were, arms and legs were stuck out, were stuck out of that hole, all over the place. I could find that grave again. I mean, they weren't up out of the hole very much, but I knew exactly where they were buried. 5 of 'em. And I got pictures of the five, and one had his arms blown off at the shoulder. And one looked real young. One had buck teeth. One was real muscular. I mean, each of 'em gained an identity to me. But I, again, I got pictures of the hooches blown apart, the bunkers. There's one picture I got with a letter being written home to a guy's fiance, he was killed. And another, well, 1989, our 20-year class reunion, we had a 20-year reunion of getting overrun on the day of October 9th, 1989, we had a reunion in Hudson, Wisconsin.

KURTZ: Okay.

ZIEN: Oh, another guy's name. Oh, um, oh, I'll get it. Anyways.

KURTZ: How many people showed up at this reunion?

ZIEN: I think, probably eight, nine of us. And we got the word, you know, 1 or 2 committed suicide, or got killed, car accidents. We got the word that, you know, we couldn't find 1 or 2. And Adzig, A-D-Z-I-G, from Michigan. Don Adzig. He lived, he was a Boy Scout leader in the Twin Cities at the time. And now he moved back to Michigan. But the reunion, I had a hard time after that. And so obviously, Parks, he committed suicide, hung himself. He had twin, 21, 22-year-old daughters, one of them come home at 10:30 in the morning and found him hanging in the garage.

KURTZ: So this reunion brought back these bad memories. And so it was not a positive thing.

ZIEN: I put some ends together and that I never, you know, I had been struggling with for all those years. And yeah, the negatives, I don't know if they outweighed the positives. I've had a hard time corresponding with anybody from that unit.

KURTZ: Has there been a reunion since then?

ZIEN: Nope. Nope. Not since then. And then I could not make the funeral for Parks, I had some legislative function, and I wish I would have. I should have just, but, you know. And I– here's where the survivor's guilt comes in again. Um. A couple of years before that, 1987, I took a motorcycle trip. I had a legislative conference in New Orleans. On the way to New Orleans, I went to Florida and, um, to see where the hometown of Jimmy, let me see, Jimmie Cox, Jimmie D. Cox, Jimmy Dean Cox or Jimmy Don Cox or something. But he was from St. Augustine, Florida. So I went and I called, I got in the phone booth and I called and called and called. Did anybody know Jimmy Cox, killed October 9th, 1969. I come across an aunt, you know, just calling, oh, maybe try this Cox family. I found an aunt. “Oh, yeah. Jimmy,” you know, and I wanted to make sure he was the right one. And when we carried his body to the landing zone, he had been– it was only cords and his neck bone sticking out. He had been beheaded from a Chicomer's satchel charge and I, I says, “I remember his freckles and I want to make sure it was the right guy,” because his dog tags was blown away too. And I says, “Did he have freckles?” And I'll never forget this. His aunt said, “He was freckled dizzy.” And I started crying on the phone. I ended up staying with his brother that night, stayed at his brother's house. And I mean, it was really rough. I went to his grave and I put some of my, one of my dog tags at his grave.

KURTZ: Yeah.

ZIEN: And, you know, I mean, I got pictures of this. And then I went to Georgia. Howard was from Georgia and Howard, George Howard, he was being put up for a court-martial before we got overrun because he had a live chicom, you know, the string was pulled or whatever that was.

KURTZ: The grenade?

ZIEN: Yeah. Chicom grenade. And he was carrying, and he had some other souvenirs which were dangerous, you know, and, um, which he could have jeopardized other lives. And Jimmy Don Cox, his mother, let me see, his dad had died just a few weeks before, a few months before. George's dad had just died a few months or weeks before, I can't even remember, but it was almost the exact date. And George, George Howard. Howard, Holtz, Cox, Shields. George Howard, Howard is his last name, but his dad was a World War veteran. His brother and sister-in-law and sister confided in me that their father had all kinds of souvenirs from World War Two, so the son was just acting like his dad, wanted to bring back some souvenirs, he had that live chicom. So then I went to Oklahoma, Kiowa, Oklahoma, and James Shields, I think it's Shields, James Shields. They named a gymnasium after him. I talked to his sister. Was she bitter. “What took you so long?” and “I'm glad you finally made it.” The irony of those three, three Marines, they had all the exact same citation. “Hill,” “bravery,” “courage,” “Witches,” you know, “near the DMZ,” “meritorious action” and whatever. That's not the way they were killed. Each, you know, Cox and Howard, I think, were in a bunker. And Shields was in between bunkers and, um. Holtz, he's the guy that put me in a helicopter before I was medevacked to the USS Repose for those ten days, Holtz had a son that was only three weeks old when he was killed. He was killed in the night of October 9th. But he was from Redding, California. But Holtz, I tried writing letters, I never could get a, nobody ever responded to me, but Holtz, H-O-L-T-Z, was from the, concussion, one of the satchel charges, a grenade was thrown into the wires. Shorty from Pennsylvania heard something in the wires that we're getting overrun, and he opened up on the M-16. And Holtz was shot three times in the back. And one bullet had come through. He could still talk, so I don't know if it was sucking wound. But, he blubbered something about going back to the world. This is his million wound. And he died in the corpsman's arms. But Holtz, you know, I was always wondering, 1969, his son would be 70, 37 years old. And anyways, back to that motorcycle trip. I went to New Orleans. Well, I went to Saint Augustine, Florida. Georgia, went to New Orleans, and I come back through Kiowa, McAlester, Oklahoma. I put together a trip. I mean, I, I wanted to have a reunion and I wanted to see all the guys. And because what bothered me is nobody had written none of those three families a letter. No other Marines, a commanding officer other than the same form letter they got, their son was a hero. Nobody had gotten the truth of what really happened, and I couldn't tell them the truth, you know?

KURTZ: So was this a plus or a minus for you?

ZIEN: It was a plus until the reunion.

KURTZ: So this happened before the reunion?

ZIEN: Yeah. This is 1987. I did this. And the irony, this was in July that I did this trip, and in Sep– I'm putting together a trip. I'm getting a hold of Don Powers and Don Adzig, and we're finding more people. I had access to, you know, from Department of Defense, trying to get other names and addresses, unit records, and Parks was doing the same thing. He was going around the United States. He was an Internet computer specialist. I'm not computer literate, but he's doing the same thing. So I get this call out of the clear blue sky from Don Adzig. “You'll never guess who's doing the same thing we're doing,” of course, Adzig was helping me at the time. “Tony Parks.” And he got a Silver Star that night for heroism. And he had part of one thighbone off and one of his testicles, I think was blown off. I mean you don't talk to a guy about that.

KURTZ: No.

ZIEN: But anyways, he couldn't have been too bad because he had twin daughters and a son. And they were at the reunion, by the way. Then I felt guilty. Never went to his funeral because I was out on business. I should have canceled it. And I just, you know, I don't know, I just– it's just really difficult.

KURTZ: Okay. So has this gotten any better since the reunion and all of this? I mean, have you, not in contact with anybody, anymore?

ZIEN: Um. Don Powers, once in a while. Don Adzig, I gotta call him. I called him here a couple months ago. I had to speak in Detroit, Michigan. This is six months ago. And I couldn't find his number. And I called and I didn't try hard enough, probably, but he moved back to Michigan. I'm driven to over succeed, overachiever. And if I had my way, I'd be working with and for veterans and veterans and veterans, monuments, memorials. The Iraq, uh, Iraqi Freedom, I have tremendous respect for them. But. I could handle another reunion now. But for a while there, it was pretty rough. And it was pretty rough.

KURTZ: How did you work through this problem?

ZIEN: Oh my gosh. I used to be a post-traumatic stress disorder counselor. I got a master's degree in 1975 in guidance and counseling, and I was a campus administrator at the, I was a job service counselor manager, um, 1980-83. Veterans counselor. Back it up, I should say when I when I got out of the Marine Corps, I went to campus, UW-Eau Claire, I was a counselor right out. 1971, I started school, but I was helping vets. Then the university hired me as a work study through the VA. In 1975, I got a master's degree, then I was Wisvets outreach counselor for the Department of Veterans Affairs. In 1977, I became Wisconsin's Vietnam Veterans director until 1984. In 1980, I was job service counselor manager and also a veteran specialist. 1983, I was a campus administrator. 1984, I took a contract with the VA to be a peer counselor for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. How did I work through it? Self-disclosure, all the psychology you read and everything else, being open about it. And I got a couple of friends here, Vietnam vets, as you know, Vietnam vets can talk to Vietnam vets a lot better–

KURTZ: Yes.

ZIEN: –easier, as you are. I don't usually disclose as much. But anyways. Being at the High Ground Veterans Memorial, the Quad County Tribute, the Wisconsin Veterans Tribute, the law enforcement, uh, Wisconsin Law Enforcement Officers Training– Officers Tribute by Black River Falls. I initiated a lot of those. The High Ground, I was one of the first five board members and was responsible for getting the site to be the High Ground by Neillsville. And I guess I just, motorcycles is a way I cope, uh, I used to run marathons, but I can't anymore since I've had all the surgeries, but just have to get real physical, when I get stressed out, I guess.

KURTZ: So physical and getting out on the road on a motorcycle is how it relives, this.

ZIEN: Yep. And walking, running.

KURTZ: Uh, we kind of have drifted away from Vietnam, but that was pretty important to do this. Did we cover it? Did anything happen after the Khe Khe situation, Khe Khe Bridge situation that is memorable?

ZIEN: Oh, yeah. It was like we were numb. You know, we didn't blame Wards, Wards, from North or South Carolina. You know, other people were drinking black market whiskey and trying marijuana. Yeah, a couple of people talked about beating him up, killing him, you know, but nobody did. Oh boy. We got to the ship. I remember the last picture I took of Vietnam, there's a Marine or Army footprint in the sand, then there's det cord on a French railroad track. The French left. We left. We were coming out of the DMZ, going back to Quang Tri, and here's an army unit coming in. And Jerry Buttke from Cadott, Wisconsin, he was a year older than I was, he was in the Army. I saw Buttke. I said, “Hey, Buttke.” And he said, “Hey, Zien!” And that night we met and we were together by Khe Khe Bridge between Firebase Stud, Vandergriff and Quang Tri, Dong Ha. But, you know, we ate and drank and whiskey. And then there was a guy from Cornell, Wisconsin. Dave Mocha, Dave Mocha, he was a Seabee. And so I got pictures drinking black market whiskey until we couldn't, until we passed out, drunk, puke, throw up. But I remember working out with a 50 caliber machine gun and just, there was an Army APC, armored personnel–

KURTZ: Carrier.

ZIEN: Yeah. And I hit somebody. I was firing down by the river bottom and [makes yelling noise] And I hit somebody and I wanted to go down there and bring a Marine patrol. And let's go find out who I'd hit because there were civilians in the area. And, uh, “No, no, no,” we would've seen civilians, the NVA gook, you know, so they opened up and just shot and shot and shot [imitates machine gun fire] 50 caliber, every fourth or fifth round's a tracer. [Imitates man screaming] The guy, it was a man, just kept screaming, and finally, all of a sudden, he's quiet. The next day I wanted to take, I don't care, I want to take a Marine patrol down there, and I talk to a commanding officer and I said, “I feel bad, I might've hit a civilian, you know.” “You go down there, number one, there's ambush. Number two, there's booby traps. Number three, we only got like a week or two left and we're out of this hell hole.” You know, “Why do you want to go get wasted for?” I've had a hard time living with that. To this day, I don't know what I hit. And I wish I could have found out. Uh, anything else? We were in Okinawa. We were in, this would be March of '70. But Kent State had just went down. And we were in formation. And there was this guy, I was standing next to him, had been shot three times. And one bullet, AK-47, was still in his chest. And when they made the announcement about Kent State, we were at ease. They encouraged us to cheer. And I did not cheer Americans being killed because I was a college dropout. I, I had been in college, in August or September, I went to college for a few weeks. And then I went to pick up Larry Jankowski in Moline, Illinois, or not Moline, Skid Row, Aurora, Aurora, Broadview. And that's right, I was in college for a few weeks. But I dropped out of college because I wanted to be patriotic. You know, I was really good in wrestling and the guys that I had beat by like one point in high school, I was just flopping 'em around like you couldn't believe. Anyways, I was a college dropout. I was in college. They were, these were college students. I felt an affinity to these college students. So the Marine Corps formation cheered and shouted, “Good for those peaceniks or hippies.” And I just, I did not hear because I was, I felt affinity. I felt a closeness. I was a college student, so. Then when I did get back, I never cut my hair for, like, a year and nine months. And I once I didn't bother combing it too much. But I didn't like shaving, I didn't shave too much. And anybody were against hippies, rednecks were against hippies. Hey, you know, I was a barroom brawler, I was at the lounge or the tavern or the Frog Hop. Hey, I didn't turn down a good fight at all. And, uh, I was never beat.

KURTZ: Why do you think you were interested in fighting at that point in your life?

ZIEN: Hostility, anger, defensive. I remember one college professor made fun of Vietnam vets, and I had Marine Corps fatigues, green dungarees, and there was some holes in it. It was pretty bedraggled. I just facetiously said, “Shrapnel from a B-52 bomber,” you know, shrapnel from a B-52 bomber. And he just made fun of Vietnam vets. Like we were cowardly, we were misled. And we were cowardly because we did not protest the Vietnam War. And that had a lasting impression upon me, you know.

KURTZ: Were there any other bad experiences because you were a veteran? Like this one professor one?

ZIEN: Oh, uh, my, we had a half girl of beer at Pinkrett Tavern, south of Cadott, and we went to Bateman Tavern and somebody said, “Were you on drugs when you killed those babies?” You know, I had been drinking. And I took them outside and three of them. And people outside couldn't believe what they saw. I was, I went to state in high school wrestling and in Vietnam, they wouldn't even let me box because I'd just go crazy boxing, I'd just pummel people. I was good with the punji sticks. Anyways, back to Bateman, three guys. I literally beat all three of them up. I ran one's head into the car rim and the car rim did not have a hubcap on it. So, you know, it was those nuts.

KURTZ: Yeah.

ZIEN: Rammed his head into the, whatever they are, nuts, and knocked him out. The other two, I mean I just, I pummeled them, I threw them around. But I had so much rage, so much unvented emotion, unvented energy, and I was really super physically fit. And, you know, I mean–

KURTZ: Was there any police difficulties as a result of that?

ZIEN: No, I went through window at Water Street one time. The football fullback, put me through a window. I got arrested there, you know.

KURTZ: For breaking the window?

ZIEN: Well, the fullback, we were– he was stronger than I was in the legs. But in the chest and arms, I was much stronger than he was. But the fullback, running back, fullback, he put me through the window, back first. The window panes busted. This has gotta be, oh it was Saint Patrick's Day, March 17th, '73, I think. You look at their police records. You gotta be careful with the state–

KURTZ: [Laughs] No, we don't need–

ZIEN: They were always going to use it against me on my campaigns, but they never did.

KURTZ: How do you think the Vietnam experience affected the rest of your life?

ZIEN: It's been a positive. I keep telling myself that. That there's a cohesiveness, camaraderie among Vietnam vets, no matter what branch, that is so strong. It was a strong, positive experience. I will go to the grave that the Vietnam War was proper. It was justified. We stopped the flow of communism when we left. We had the killing field in Laos, we had a half million Vietnamese citizens, civilians lose their lives in the high seas. I heard Westy Westmoreland speak a couple of times. I'm fully with him that the Vietnam War, we stopped what could have been a Third World War at that time with China. And I guess I can't do anything but that, Jim. Justify, you know, Howard, Holtz, Cox, Shields, that were Lima Company, Third Battalion, Fourth Marine Regiment, in my company that died from my platoon. Howard, Holtz, Cox were from my, uh, squad. No. Shields, Cox, Howard were from my squad, but then Howard got transferred to another squad. Maybe. Well, whatever. But I cannot justify that human beings had their lives wasted. Vietnam was not a wasted war. It was not a wasted effort. The money, the time, the human lives. I think future history will show that no war is proper, but Vietnam will be justified better in future history lessons than what people think of it now.

KURTZ: Yeah. How do you feel about the way people do characterize it, you know, that it was a waste, a mistake?

ZIEN: That's their opinion, Jim, but I disagree. I absolutely disagree and I won't get into heated arguments–

KURTZ: No.

ZIEN: –but it is my feeling that it was justified.

KURTZ: Well, we've covered a lot of ground. Is there anything that we haven't covered that we should cover?

ZIEN: Oh my God. Um, you did a good job. Boy, you can– it takes one to know one.

KURTZ: [Laughs] Yes, it does.

ZIEN: Geez. I just, the adjustment. I got out, my first few semesters, I had a hard time getting Cs, and the Best Club had drinking parties and [Santa Gravelers??] on Fridays and, um, you know, it was rough, and the system, I became a veterans– All these years I've been helping people with disability claims, trying to help, that's another way I feel better about myself, helping others succeed, getting service connect disability. Oh, there's a lot of incidents. I guess then we could talk about the adjustment. Vietnam, the people. I'll be going in the day time and I'll see an “M,” right? I see on the blackboard there. An “M.” You know, wow, you know squad leader Montana. I'll see Johnson, black guy Johnson, there was an incident where, I was point man one time, and somebody, I pointed at a C-rat can off to the side. And you know that if you see something, the point man points at it, everybody points at it, and you don't kick the damn thing. He kicked it and it exploded. And it blew part of his foot, just shredded it kind of, in his boot. And, he had to know like, you know, no way was he supposed to kick that can. There was a grenade under it. But he wasn't killed. He could've been killed, he could have killed a couple people in the squad. Oh boy. I remember one time I was the point man. And, oh boy, I took a trail for the ways, and here's footprints in the trail. And you got a picture of me pointing at the footprints. But the irony is, I backtracked on our own trail. Those gooks were following us. They were following [coughs] they were following us through the bush. And I took this trail and I backtracked on the trail. And it was just so comical. But we never found, it was like Indians. Oh, I gotta tell you another thing. In Laos, in the area that we were at, they discovered 3 or 4 species of animals unknown to man before. And that part of Laos was so beautiful. Different terrain, different vegetation. Oh another story. One time this guy from Oregon, he was a professional big game guy and he said he was. And we saw this huge deer like an elk. And we brought this 60, 50 cal, 60, and brought the 60 caliber machine gun and the 50 cal. And we wounded him, and we wanted to eat it. This was, you know, DMZ area. So we went after it. He lost the trail like 2 or 3 times. But I mean, it had a track like, you know–

KURTZ: Great big elk.

ZIEN: Yeah. And we went and he lost the trail. I found it like 2, 3 times. But I was new in country, an FNG, you know, “Oh no,” he had to take the trail when I found it. Another time, Schmitty, from Louisiana, same guy that almost shopping me in McGraw. We had, you know, on patrol, you take a little rest and you take off your shoes and socks because they're always wet and you didn't want to get jungle rot. And he'd roll up his pants. And this centipede was like a bright orange. It was like 12 or 14 inches long and like an inch, inch-and-a-quarter wide and maybe a half-inch thick, crawled up his leg, and Schmitty beat his leg with the blunt end of his M-16. We had helicoptered him out because he beat his leg so bad. And I'm sitting next to him when this happened. And the centipede, he knocked it into pieces, but each leg had like pinchers on it, and the fangs were like an inch and a half wide, it had fangs on it like an animal, like a rat. But I mean it freaked him, totally freaked him out. And, um, oh my gosh. But he beat his own leg. I mean, there's hundreds of little incidents like that, that I recall. And, another time, I cut myself there. We're on patrol, and they did a fire “mad minute,” and our own guys were shooting at us and I'm blazing a trail, trying to get out of there, and bullets were ricocheting. And you know, I cut myself on my own knife trying to get out of there. Another time, the bullets whistling. I don't know whose bullets they were. It was somewhat of a firefight, I guess you'd call it. And to this day, I don't know who was shooting at me.

KURTZ: That's kind of a strange feeling, isn't it?

ZIEN: Yeah, you've had it probably happen too.

KURTZ: Yes.

ZIEN: Oof. Gives me shivers just thinking about it.

KURTZ: Okay, yeah, I think–

ZIEN: Oh, ramble on.

KURTZ: I think we've covered so much.

[Interview ends]